+1. Many have commented on the MB piezo tweeters - yuk. And many folks are stating their position by buying other cab manufacturers or MB cabs with horns. At the end of the day the "market" will likely be the ultimate jury on the GK MB cabs.
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Just opened up my 210MBE...
- Thread starter miner49er11
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+1. Many have commented on the MB piezo tweeters - yuk. And many folks are stating their position by buying other cab manufacturers or MB cabs with horns. At the end of the day the "market" will likely be the ultimate jury on the GK MB cabs.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
Damping if anything is more important with a ported cab. Damping absorbs internal midrange reflections that otherwise will reflect back to the cone at various angles of phase, causing ragged midrange response. In the case of undamped ported cabs those unabsorbed reflections can go out the port, making midrange response even worse than with an undamped sealed cab.
Only if you care about having the cab sound as good as possible.
As I said in my first post the need for damping isn't the subject of debate. It's been acknowledged as a necessity in the professional acoustical engineering community going back to well before Jess Oliver used it in the B25. Measuring cabs with and without it to prove its worth isn't necessary, that's going back over ground that was first trod long before most of you were born. Don't believe it? Read the research yourself, it's out there, and no harder to find than by typing the words 'speaker damping' into that Google box at the top of your screen.
I did this test with my double baffle B15N. I was refurbishing the cabinet and the fiberglass on the back wall was in rough shape. I wanted to replace it with a different material that wouldn't itch or have health issues since the fliptop amp was being opened and closed whenever it was moved.
I ran a studio reference disk, some CD's, and played through the cabinet without and with various amounts of lining and listened. The bottom line is that it made a big difference to the mids when the cabinet was lined. The mids lost their muddiness, there was more articulation and delicateness in the notes.
At some point, I couldn't decide how much stuffing was necessary. As I added more, it was difficult to determine if the thicker lining was making a difference. The differences were subtle. Perhaps ear fatigue was setting in.
The problem with this model of fliptop is that there is very little space between the back of the cabinet and the amp head when it is flipped. Too much stuffing and the fliptop can't flip. In the end, I wound up using layers of a dense wool felt covering all surfaces within the cab. I used a second layer on the back wall that arches over the top of the cabinet where the lid sits. This gets removed when I need to flip the amp.
Excellent! So would you say that the B15N would benefit from, say leaving the back wall as is, ( original damping stuff ) and adding a thin damping to the other panels?
I thought that it did help to cover all the wood surfaces. Ampeg did this with the reissue B15R.
The advantage of the felt that I used is that it is stiff and, if cut slightly oversized, when it is stuffed into place it holds itself in place without tape or staples. I figured that this would give me the option to adjust the sound on the fly if I wanted to. I thought that this would be useful for recording. A fliptop makes this easy since the top comes off.
This is the felt that I used. You can probably find it at a lower cost at an auto parts store.
The advantage of the felt that I used is that it is stiff and, if cut slightly oversized, when it is stuffed into place it holds itself in place without tape or staples. I figured that this would give me the option to adjust the sound on the fly if I wanted to. I thought that this would be useful for recording. A fliptop makes this easy since the top comes off.
This is the felt that I used. You can probably find it at a lower cost at an auto parts store.
Please read the thread. No one (Except perhaps Bill) is refusing GK the right to cut costs just like every other company.
However, Bob came in this thread and made an unsubstantiated claim that the lack of stuffing was a design feature and it would not improve anything...and never said anything further.
Spreading misinformation is what I object to and you'll see me get all over anyone who does this.
p.s. I would absolutely not buy the P-series cabinets except to disconnect the piezo -- they sell H-series models, so buy one of those if you want the horn =)
After over 100 posts maybe it's time to summarise what we've learned on this complex technical thread.
1. If you want to stick damping stuff in your cab, do it.
2. If you don't want to stick damping stuff in your cab, don't do it.
Whoa, my head's spinning!
That's pretty much the most inaccurate summary I've heard since "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"
That's about it.After over 100 posts maybe it's time to summarise what we've learned on this complex technical thread.
1. If you want to stick damping stuff in your cab, do it.
2. If you don't want to stick damping stuff in your cab, don't do it.
Whoa, my head's spinning!
It neglects the fact that everyone who says cabinets should have damping used facts and anecdotes to back up their statements (I even provided some nifty charts) and everyone who said otherwise was pretty much speaking out of the top of their hats / playing devil's advocate.
No one has provided any evidence whatsoever that there is a situation in which you should not damp a cabinet other than when cutting costs.
No one has provided any evidence whatsoever that there is a situation in which you should not damp a cabinet other than when cutting costs.
How about I add some actual information:
1. If you want to damp your cabinet, it's a great idea because dozens of research studies over 30+ years, and innumerable anecdotes, show that it's the best way to get predictable results out of a speaker cabinet - as well as clear reproduction of your sound.
2. If you don't want to damp your cabinet, pretty much the only reason not to is to save time/money. You do this at the risk of unpredictable behavior which could sap volume, muddy up your tone, or otherwise, and will in no way be predictable (since different inputs will cause different reflection artifacts).
3. Talkbass users will argue about anything despite the lack of any supporting evidence, but will not put their money where their mouth is and try the ridiculous things they propose with no basis in fact. Still, no one has ripped the damping out of their cabinets to achieve super tone.
1. If you want to damp your cabinet, it's a great idea because dozens of research studies over 30+ years, and innumerable anecdotes, show that it's the best way to get predictable results out of a speaker cabinet - as well as clear reproduction of your sound.
2. If you don't want to damp your cabinet, pretty much the only reason not to is to save time/money. You do this at the risk of unpredictable behavior which could sap volume, muddy up your tone, or otherwise, and will in no way be predictable (since different inputs will cause different reflection artifacts).
3. Talkbass users will argue about anything despite the lack of any supporting evidence, but will not put their money where their mouth is and try the ridiculous things they propose with no basis in fact. Still, no one has ripped the damping out of their cabinets to achieve super tone.
Yes. There are some situations where it doesn't make any difference to some people.
That doesn't change the fact that it's not going to do anything to improve your sound to leave the damping out. It might save you some time or money, but it's minimal for no gain.
So seeing as your third point merely slags off fellow talkbass users I guess we're stuck on two options.
I eagerly await the next 100 posts!
I am enjoying this thread. I am an MB212 owner and I love the way it sounds. I don't find it to be muddy in the mids at all. I won't be adding felt, because I don't want to void my warranty by opening it up, but I love to mod stuff, so when that warranty is up....well, maybe I'll experiment then...
I think you may have summarized my position perfectly.I am enjoying this thread. I am an MB212 owner and I love the way it sounds. I don't find it to be muddy in the mids at all. I won't be adding felt, because I don't want to void my warranty by opening it up, but I love to mod stuff, so when that warranty is up....well, maybe I'll experiment then...
Whew... and I read the thread because I was hoping to just learn how it sounded. How it handled 200-400 watts of power. Does it distort or wuss out? I have an MB200 head and am thinking of pairing it with a 210MBE cab for small gigs/practice.
Big thanks to Bill Fitzmaurice, et al.
This is one of those things that I always wondered about, you know, what's the quantitative story on it? I have three Ampeg BA series combos (all late model USA) and none of them had more than a perfunctory application of damping. I took the time to carefully fix it with poly batting and in every case, the mids became WAY more clear. Cleaned the mud right out of them, and not just across a narrow band of frequencies. But the whole range from midbass up. I'm convinced. But it's nice to know that the quantitative research is there to support my experience.
This is one of those things that I always wondered about, you know, what's the quantitative story on it? I have three Ampeg BA series combos (all late model USA) and none of them had more than a perfunctory application of damping. I took the time to carefully fix it with poly batting and in every case, the mids became WAY more clear. Cleaned the mud right out of them, and not just across a narrow band of frequencies. But the whole range from midbass up. I'm convinced. But it's nice to know that the quantitative research is there to support my experience.
