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Kappalite 3012LF vs. Delta 12LFA (please help)

hobbes1

hobbes1

Nov 3, 2006
418
28
sites.google.com
#1
I am trying to decide between these two speakers in a home brew cab. Currently there is a Delta pro 12a speaker in the cab and it's too middy and not low enough. I want a speaker that will be a more solid low end to pair with an Avatar SB112. This home brew will be essentially like a subwoofer or reinforcer for the low end and doesn't need lots of top end. Weight wise they are similar and price wise the Delta is half the cost. Here are curves I ran on Win ISD online and they look pretty similar. I'm having a hard time deciding as the price/performance seems in favor of the Delta...am I missing something?
The cab is a slottted port cab, MDF, 1.5 cu. ft and tuned to about 55 Hz. I'm looking for the best fit here, NOT recommendations to get a fEarful :)

The Kappalite 3012LF curve

Kappalite3012LFcurve.gif


The Delta 12 LFA curve

Delta12LFAcurve.gif


And both curves super imposed on each other.

Kappalite3012LFandDelta12LFAcurve.gif


Thanks in advance for any help you might offer.
 
#3
A 3012HO would be the best fit in that box, or a Faital 12PR300 possibly. Not going to get what a 3012LF can give in that alignment.

If it's just low end you're after I'd look at one of the Dayton woofers. There're a number of them that're quite capable and very cheap if you're willing to sacrifice upper end of the spectrum.

This guy for example:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Little cheaper than a delta 12LFA but a ton more xmax and equivalent sensitivity and much lower Fs. Haven't modeled it in your enclosure but might be worth your time to input :)
 
#6
Hell, this guy is cheaper than the eminence 12LFA by a ton and comparable in the lows:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


And cheaper yet, though I can't vouch for the quality of whoever PRV audio (at least they list all the T/S specs)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The q is possibly a little high on that guy but it would probably be OK. Model to be sure.
 
#7
If you can build a new cab, Id get either the pair of BP102's or the CB158 in the TB classifieds. If you wanna go low with out over powering mids, they will get you there.


If a DIY isn't your flavor then Look into an Eminence LAB12. around the same price range as the delta pro, but goes much lower, and has Three times the Xmax. Should work well in that box if you modify the port
 
#8
Lowactnsatsfctn said:
If you can build a new cab, Id get either the pair of BP102's or the CB158 in the TB classifieds. If you wanna go low with out over powering mids, they will get you there.


If a DIY isn't your flavor then Look into an Eminence LAB12. around the same price range as the delta pro, but goes much lower, and has Three times the Xmax. Should work well in that box if you modify the port
Click to expand...

Thanks.... I already have e cab so not looking to build any others and I only want a 1x12. Iirc, the Lab12 only goes up to about 200 Hz or so. I'm looking for little more top end than that :)
 
#9
rpsands said:
Hell, this guy is cheaper than the eminence 12LFA by a ton and comparable in the lows:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


And cheaper yet, though I can't vouch for the quality of whoever PRV audio (at least they list all the T/S specs)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The q is possibly a little high on that guy but it would probably be OK. Model to be sure.
Click to expand...

Ok I'll look into the ones you suggested. Is there an online modeler for max power and spl? Thanks for the tips
 
#13
hobbes1 said:
I am trying to decide between these two speakers in a home brew cab. Currently there is a Delta pro 12a speaker in the cab and it's too middy and not low enough. I want a speaker that will be a more solid low end to pair with an Avatar SB112. This home brew will be essentially like a subwoofer or reinforcer for the low end and doesn't need lots of top end.

The cab is a slottted port cab, MDF, 1.5 cu. ft and tuned to about 55 Hz. I'm looking for the best fit here, NOT recommendations to get a fEarful :)

Thanks in advance for any help you might offer.
Click to expand...

To summarize, you have a slotted 1.5 cf box that you would like to match up with a 12 inch driver that will provide bass support ("more solid low end" and "essentially like a subwoofer...") for an Avatar SB112, which is an approximately 3 cf ported cab with a Delta 12lf.

+1 for having a technical target or goal for the project. One step further and you will know what that target is. You need to reverse engineer the SB112: just measure the internal cab volume and port dimensions. Then run sims with the driver until the port matches. You will then have the bass response and power handling (Xmax limit) for the design. Your DIY cab will have to be an improvement on this: deeper bass, tighter bass and/or greater Xmax determined power handling. Look out for a power handling sag above Fb.

If the DIY cab is to be run in parallel off the same amplifier it must at least match the SB112 in sensitivity. Sensitivity, bass extension and small cab size: you can only have 2 of these. If the DIY cab has the same sensitivity and a cab with half the internal volume, it will not be able to act as a subwoofer or otherwise provide much improvement in bass response. The likelihood of a 12 inch driver in a 1.5cf box providing deeper, tighter bass than a decent 12 inch driver in a 3 cf box is minimal.

Suggest you build a cab that will stack with the SB112. Model some decent 12 inch drivers with at least the same (or greater) sensitivity as the SB112 until you find one that meets your design goals (deeper and tighter bass than the SB112). It will likely be in the 2-3cf range. Suggest you consider the Deltalite 2412 II in a 2-3cf box tuned to 44 Hz.

OTOH, even adding a second cab with more or less the same performance as the SB112 will provide significant improvement. This is not a bad idea...

Good luck.
 
#14
Thanks much for this succinct analysis! To clarify, my SB112 has the Neo Delta 2512 speaker. I had an email response from Jerry McNutt at eminence that stated the kappalite would be much louder and deeper than the Delta12lfa in the same cab. I asked him if he thought I could get enough out of the kappalite without blowing out the delta lite 2512. Waiting for his reply on that.
Considering whether sticking another deltalite 2512 into my DIY would be better than the kappalite... Sigh! :)
 
#16
IMO - you are embarking on a crapshoot. Best advice, reverse engineer the avatar cab, clone it but leave out the tweeter. It is a very simple cab, an easy build. You might even find a local that can do the build of the shell for you. Donate the 1.5 foot cab to a landfill.

The issue I see is that while you can stick a driver into that box and maybe even port it so the frequency response is close, efficiency wise they won't be close. The likelihood of ending up with a good soundin pair is not as high as ending up with a dud, in my estimation. Besides, the sB112 is one of the best asounding of the Avatar cab's going.

Yeah, I did read where you said you didn't want ro build nother cab. Didn't say this adv was not a botter pill. Sometimes you just have to take the pill though...
 
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#17
Passinwind said:
The curves you need to look at are mainly Max SPL and Max Power. Here's a (very) quick and dirty comparison of Max SPL, purple is KL3012LF and green is D12LF, both in 1.5cu ft and tuned to 55Hz:

Link Removed

And here's Max Power:

Link Removed
Click to expand...

I can't confirm this statement.
The curves refer to Xmax. But considering only Xmax is contingent truth.

For both speakers the cone displacement curves are identical.
Xmech is identical for both speakers.

In general audio signals contain lots of short term dynamics with very high peaks.
It is not actually audible to human ears if short term peaks are above Xmax whereas the sustained signal remains below Xmax.

Considering the achievable acoustic power shows for both speakers nearly identical SPL if normal audio program is considered which contains normal amount of short term dynamics.

But the situation looks different for compressed audio program, or distorted bass sounds that lacks of dynamics.
If this is the case it is legal to consider Xmax for comparisons


The reference efficiency of the Delta is significant greater.
That means the Delta probably is getting louder at the low mids and mid bass bands at identical input power.
But both speakers power handlings and achievable acoustic powers are limited by just the same figure of Xmech.

If you prefer a sound with less THD you are fine with the Kappa (large Xmax), if you prefer some colored and compressed sound at high signal levels you will be fine with the Delta.

But if you prefer pedals with lots of distortion and the need of high acoustic levels you will be fine with the Kappa as well.

Don't get me wrong, I don't talk about farting sounds in this context because that is different animal.


So it's on to you to decide which speaker matches your goals.

A lot of folks consider large figures of Xmax but don't consider the peak To RMS Ratio of audio programs and therefor the meaning of Xmech.
Large values of Xmax don't mean anything unless the audio program dynamics and therefore Xmax verus Xmech figures are considered.
Figures of 25% Xmax is sufficient for nearly all applications. Figures of 50% Xmax related to Xmech don't automatically means that it calculates to a significant benefit in achievable acoustic power.
 
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#18
ThisBass: Hi and thanks for your input. I tend to play a cleaner sound with no fuzz or OD pedals in the signal.

I guess what all this really comes down to is this: I need to determine if I will get better performance from adding a second Avatar SB112 Neo or if I can get good results with keeping my 1.5cu ft box and adding a different speaker to it. Most all of the speaker choices mentioned in this thread could provide decent to good (maybe very good) performance. My feeling is with the Kappalite 3012LF, I could get probably the best low end but the question becomes, due to it's relative inefficiency compared to the Avatar cab, could I get enough SPL out of it at the power I'd be putting in (300 watts at max output of my Shuttle 6.0 head, to each cab..although the Neo Avatar driver is only rated to 250watts)...May come down to a "Crapshoot" trial and error but I'm trying to rule that out as best I can before spending the money.
Currently, with my SPL meter, I am getting about 113 dB measured on axis at about 6 feet away using both cabs as they are now (avatar with neo speaker and DIY with delta pro 12a). Not sure how this would stack up or be improved with any of the other choices.

I am not sure what program Passinwind used to get his graphs...does anyone know? Is there a free program that would work for that on a Mac?
 
#19
hobbes1 said:
I am not sure what program Passinwind used to get his graphs...does anyone know? Is there a free program that would work for that on a Mac?
Click to expand...

WinISD Pro Alpha 0.7.0.900, meant for Windows 7 64 bit. I don't use this for speaker design (actually, I don't do DIY speaker design at all any more), just for occasional quick and dirty graphs on TB. In this case I inferred fart potential and low bass SPL capability as the most compelling considerations, hence my choice of those graphs.

I know nothing of the Mac world I'm afraid. ;)
 
#20
OK. I got it. Yes, you hit it: fart potential and low end SPL are big considerations for me :)
Maybe this is a dumb question, but is there a way to match power (eg: watts output from amp) to Max SPL on the first graph so that I could tell at 300 watts (max output from my amp) what sort of Max SPL I'd be looking at?
 

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