Kappalite 3012LF vs. Delta 12LFA (please help)

[hobbes1]

IMO, your 1.5 cu.ft. box isn't big enough to get real bass extension even out of these drivers that are capable of giving it in a suitable box.

IMO, the Kappalite is way too expensive to be putting in a box not purposely designed for it. The D12LF, tuned with a midbass hump would add perceived bass to your overall sound and do it without blowing a bunch of money on a premium driver only to neuter it.

Once the cost gets above what you could find another Avatar 112 for, getting another Avatar makes more sense. You'd have twice the drivers running, without any mix/match crapshoots, and they'd better handle adding in some more lows (or better cutting a little upper mid to bias the sound towards the bassy side.

What you say makes sense for sure. Getting another SB112 for a decent price (used) can be tough as there don't seem to be many on the market at any given time. The biggest problem I see with the Delta 12LFA is shown by the max power handling. There is a huge dive in the power it can handle (down to 150 watts) between about 68Hz-125Hz which is a prime zone for what I'm looking for. If I tried to run my amp wide above that, I'd likely smoke the speaker, right? the KL 3012Lf can handle all my amp can give, according to the graphs.

 

[rpsands]

Build one. Most local lumber yards will do all the big cuts for you, and the number of tools needed to build a simple cab from a cutkit is minimal. A few 2 foot bar clamps and a caulking gun. The hardest thing is the circle cut, but that's pretty easy to do with a jigsaw, or to pay someone to do for you.

 

[will33]

What you say makes sense for sure. Getting another SB112 for a decent price (used) can be tough as there don't seem to be many on the market at any given time. The biggest problem I see with the Delta 12LFA is shown by the max power handling. There is a huge dive in the power it can handle (down to 150 watts) between about 68Hz-125Hz which is a prime zone for what I'm looking for. If I tried to run my amp wide above that, I'd likely smoke the speaker, right? the KL 3012Lf can handle all my amp can give, according to the graphs.

Believe it or not, 150 watts at xmax is pretty respectable for a single 12. Some transient peaks would probably exceed it with your amp up loud but your average signal might not. ( bass is not a sine wave).

It's real world sensitivity probably isn't too far off from your Avatar OEM either. Note Astrosonics post about longer coil/heavier moving mass but same motor structure, etc.

Do whatever you think is best. It just seems a bit illogical to me to buy an expensive, top-o-the-line driver without giving it a righteous box. In a proper box, a Kappalite3012LF could do what 2 Delta12LF's could. There's that, and then there's putting it in an undersized box, possibly then purchasing performance you'll never get to hear.

Thisbasses Beyma suggestion looks pretty cool. Don't know what they go for in the US, but it likely ain't cheap either. It is made to perform well in small boxes though.


Reason I'm leaning away from the Kappalite....

Price/box thing. You can put them in boxes bog enough to reach into the 40's and still take almost their entire thermal rating before exceeding xmax....deep, clean bass.

Without biamping, you might still want to add a passive filter to take down it's upper, 1500hz-ish peak....maybe.

 

[rpsands]

Seriously look into those dayton woofers. Lot of value for what you're looking for.

 

[will33]

Re: The power handling thing....

Your SB112 won't do more than that 150 watts in that dip above the tuning frequency either...It would become the weak link in the system with a real beefy woofer in your ext. cab. My stock apec deltalites are in about 2.25 cu.ft. each and WinISD models show just over 200 watts there for both of them together, barely over 100 watts for a single.

My 300-400 watt amps don't fart them out without adding a rediculous amount of bass boost. Your Shuttle should play it OK.

Caveat: That is with 4-string basses though...no 5-er here. For a 5-string, I'd drop the tuning in your ext. cab to 50hz or a bit lower. Mine are tuned low 40's, haven't had any farting/power handling problems with guys playing 5's through them with medium power amps and not using big bass boosts.

 

[ThisBass]

The Dayton Audio ST305-8 12" Series II Woofer Link" $95
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and spec sheet here:
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Wow, 81g of Moving Mass.
Probably this speaker needs some extra voltage to get moved
I expect this speaker is suitable for car audio applications or home theater.

 

[ThisBass]

Believe it or not, 150 watts at xmax is pretty respectable for a single 12. Some transient peaks would probably exceed it with your amp up loud but your average signal might not. ( bass is not a sine wave).

+1
That's right.

 

[hobbes1]

Re: The power handling thing....

Your SB112 won't do more than that 150 watts in that dip above the tuning frequency either...It would become the weak link in the system with a real beefy woofer in your ext. cab. My stock apec deltalites are in about 2.25 cu.ft. each and WinISD models show just over 200 watts there for both of them together, barely over 100 watts for a single.

My 300-400 watt amps don't fart them out without adding a rediculous amount of bass boost. Your Shuttle should play it OK.

Caveat: That is with 4-string basses though...no 5-er here. For a 5-string, I'd drop the tuning in your ext. cab to 50hz or a bit lower. Mine are tuned low 40's, haven't had any farting/power handling problems with guys playing 5's through them with medium power amps and not using big bass boosts.

Yes, I had asked that very question of Jerry McNutt at Eminence about the ability of the Avatar cab to keep up with the 3012LF and whether I'd be able to get enough out of the 3012LF to make it worthwhile. He said, basically, tough to tell as we don't know tuning, etc of the SB112.
So the question is, knowing that the 3012LF is an awesome speaker and knowing the SB112 might be the rate limiting part of the equation, is it worth paying the premium for the 3012LF vs. the Delta 12LFA.
Flip side to this is if I do spring for the 3012LF and I don't like how it works in the small box, I could either shift it to the avatar cab or do as others have advised and build a cab suitable for the 3012LF specs to maximize what it can do. And then again, I could sell the KL if I didn't want to do any of that and get most of my money out of it.

I play only 5 string basses and my main bass is an 18 volt Bart active system. So I need to be able to get the low notes sometimes without blowing anything up
Do you have any recommendations on adjusting the current slot port which measures 1.93"H x 12.125"W x 13" deep? I could block of some of that with 1x2" lumber...
Thanks

 

[hobbes1]

+1
That's right.

Thanks will33 and ThisBass. I didn't realize that was the case. I appreciate your (and everyone else's) time in educating me on these things!

 

[hobbes1]

Seriously look into those dayton woofers. Lot of value for what you're looking for.

So, all things considered, you feel the Dayton you referenced is a better match for my small cab than the Delta 12LFA, given their similar price points? Do you have any idea on the Max SPL and Max power handling of this Dayton speaker? I've not got the more advanced software to do it myself...
Thanks for your time and input!

 

[hobbes1]

I myself use this one:
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fb 55Hz at 1,5 cu ft should give you what you are looking for.

As far as I know this speaker is out of production in the meanwhile but never the less should be still in stock at some stores.

Hi. Thanks...I couldn't find anyone still selling these (at least in the US) and not sure what if anything by Beyma is comparable. Cost is pretty high too....right along with the 3012LF

 

[will33]

Wow, 81g of Moving Mass.
Probably this speaker needs some extra voltage to get moved
I expect this speaker is suitable for car audio applications or home theater.

It could work if the motor is strong enough. What puts me off is the rubber surround. That usually indicates soft suspension = floppy for live bass guitar, though I have not gone through and compared things like suspension compliance, motor strength, etc.

Dayton may well have another model or 2 though more designed for PA/SR that might work well at a good price, they do have some decent stuff, I just haven't sifted through them all.

 

[rpsands]

So, all things considered, you feel the Dayton you referenced is a better match for my small cab than the Delta 12LFA, given their similar price points? Do you have any idea on the Max SPL and Max power handling of this Dayton speaker? I've not got the more advanced software to do it myself...
Thanks for your time and input!

The second Dayton I referenced at ~65 bucks is the one I would model if it were my cab and the same highly specific use-case you've got.

I haven't modeled either woofer so I don't know for sure how they'd pan out, but at the price point I'd spend 10 minutes putting them into winisd (or whatever software). It ain't my cab though

This one:
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The T/S specs are almost exactly the same as a 3012HO, but with lower Fs and lower sensitivity. Almost every spec is within 10% except the Fs/Moving mass/LE.

(Which indicates it should have more going on down low, a relatively smooth upper bass, but far less going on in the midrange than a 3012HO)

 

[AstroSonic]

Yes, I had asked that very question of Jerry McNutt at Eminence about the ability of the Avatar cab to keep up with the 3012LF and whether I'd be able to get enough out of the 3012LF to make it worthwhile. He said, basically, tough to tell as we don't know tuning, etc of the SB112.
So the question is, knowing that the 3012LF is an awesome speaker and knowing the SB112 might be the rate limiting part of the equation, is it worth paying the premium for the 3012LF vs. the Delta 12LFA.
Flip side to this is if I do spring for the 3012LF and I don't like how it works in the small box, I could either shift it to the avatar cab or do as others have advised and build a cab suitable for the 3012LF specs to maximize what it can do. And then again, I could sell the KL if I didn't want to do any of that and get most of my money out of it.

I play only 5 string basses and my main bass is an 18 volt Bart active system. So I need to be able to get the low notes sometimes without blowing anything up
Do you have any recommendations on adjusting the current slot port which measures 1.93"H x 12.125"W x 13" deep? I could block of some of that with 1x2" lumber...
Thanks

The Avatar cab/driver (OEM 2512) will max out excursion wise well before the 3012LF.

The 3012LF models very similar to the Dayton PA310 (suggested by rpsands) with respect to extension and overall bass response profile in both the 1.5 cf and 3 cf cabs (same tuning yields nearly the same response). The 3012LF has substantially more excursion capability, but it cannot be used because the SB112 will max out and limit input power to the 3012. Neither of them has a mid-bass power sag (unlike the 2512).

The PA310 more closely matches the SB112 cab and driver capabilities. Hence, no wasted capability (and money).

Re: 5-string. None of the cab/driver combinations under discussion will adequately cover the fundamentals of the low notes added by the B string. No sense going radical trying to get near flat 30Hz response at high spls in compact cabs. Its best to adequately cover the second harmonic (60Hz and up), and use a high pass filter set to where the cab/port no longer loads the driver - likely somewhere in the 40-50Hz range. The high-pass filter is essential/necessary. Driving a driver/cab below the frequency where the driver is loaded by the port is a formula for disaster.

I understand your desire to use a cab (the 1.5cf) that you already have, but putting a high quality driver in it is a lot like putting a Corvette engine into a compact station wagon. Perhaps amusing, but you get very little benefit from the monster engine. The 1.5cf box strongly limits the performance of 12 inch and larger drivers. Smaller, long excursion (but lower sensitivity) drivers could be used, but 1) they are quite expensive, and 2) the lower sensitivity will require more power to match spl with the SB112 (a dedicated amp with adjustable volume). It gets complicated fast.

An easy and effective path forward is to leave the SB112 as is, and put a Dayton PA310 or Deltalite 2512 in a 2-3 cf box (stackable with the SB112). The overall blend is likely better with the 2512 (possibly a major plus), but the PA310 costs substantially less and its bass performance is similar.

 

[bgavin]

What puts me off is the rubber surround. That usually indicates soft suspension = floppy...

The Santoprene surround is usually a half-roll which supports very generous excursion.
These move much farther than corrugated paper and are quite durable.

The foam surrounds are the cheesy ones.
Low cost, high excursion, short life span in polluted air.
I have a box full of old JBL with rotted foam surrounds. A pity.

 

[hobbes1]

The second Dayton I referenced at ~65 bucks is the one I would model if it were my cab and the same highly specific use-case you've got.

I haven't modeled either woofer so I don't know for sure how they'd pan out, but at the price point I'd spend 10 minutes putting them into winisd (or whatever software). It ain't my cab though

This one:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The T/S specs are almost exactly the same as a 3012HO, but with lower Fs and lower sensitivity. Almost every spec is within 10% except the Fs/Moving mass/LE.

(Which indicates it should have more going on down low, a relatively smooth upper bass, but far less going on in the midrange than a 3012HO)

I am giving this one a serious look. thanks for pointing it out!

 

[Arjank]

What puts me off is the rubber surround. That usually indicates soft suspension = floppy for live bass guitar, though I have not gone through and compared things like suspension compliance, motor strength, etc.

Not per se.
Remember that with most designs the Fs is greatly determined by the spider.
Rubber surrounds are IMO very durable and because of their linearity great for hifi purposes.
The foam surrounds were introduced because they were cheaper, but, they also had lower mechanical losses (higher Qms and lower Rms) then the rubber surrounds.
The paper surrounds were used because it was most cheap to produce.
The folded cloth surrounds are IMO best of both worlds, they can be designed to accommodate high excursions and have low mechanical losses. Also, a manufacturer can easily fine-tune the Fs by changing the cloth impregnation. It's also most easy with these surrounds to create a progressive suspension (creating a bigger counter-force the larger the excursion), this wil introduce some (unwanted) distortion when reaching xmax. But with a well designed progressive suspension I do not see any problems with PA use, it's better then a linear suspension which creates immense distortion after it hits xmax.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[husky123]

Hey guys, not trying to hijack but I picked up a GK Neo 112 very cheap and I've been thinking of replacing the GK Neo with a 3012HO or 3012LF. I'm not too concerned about a super strong top end.

The GK cabs and port dimension's are as follows:

Internal dimensions:
13 1/2 x 13 5/8 x 21 3/4

Port dimension:
5 1/2 x 2 1/8 x 13 1/8

I think it translates to about 2 cf volume. Will either of those work well? Thanks for any insight.

 

[ThisBass]

Hi. Thanks...I couldn't find anyone still selling these (at least in the US) and not sure what if anything by Beyma is comparable. Cost is pretty high too....right along with the 3012LF

It's a pity but US speaker don't have this speaker anymore (it's out of stock)

The 12LW30/N is still in production at beyma (or again in production).
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This site shows an overview of official Beyma distributers in the continental US.
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I wish you good luck

 

[hobbes1]

Thanks to everyone who helped me in this thread. I've decided to try the Dayton PA310 speaker which I was able to order for $60 (with an online coupon discount). Will keep you posted on results after I get it and install it.