Kappalite 3012LF vs. Delta 12LFA (please help)

[will33]

The Santoprene surround is usually a half-roll which supports very generous excursion.
These move much farther than corrugated paper and are quite durable.

The foam surrounds are the cheesy ones.
Low cost, high excursion, short life span in polluted air.
I have a box full of old JBL with rotted foam surrounds. A pity.

Not per se.
Remember that with most designs the Fs is greatly determined by the spider.
Rubber surrounds are IMO very durable and because of their linearity great for hifi purposes.
The foam surrounds were introduced because they were cheaper, but, they also had lower mechanical losses (higher Qms and lower Rms) then the rubber surrounds.
The paper surrounds were used because it was most cheap to produce.
The folded cloth surrounds are IMO best of both worlds, they can be designed to accommodate high excursions and have low mechanical losses. Also, a manufacturer can easily fine-tune the Fs by changing the cloth impregnation. It's also most easy with these surrounds to create a progressive suspension (creating a bigger counter-force the larger the excursion), this wil introduce some (unwanted) distortion when reaching xmax. But with a well designed progressive suspension I do not see any problems with PA use, it's better then a linear suspension which creates immense distortion after it hits xmax.
Just my 2 cents.

Hmm....

Well, that makes me wonder what sort of stuff I may've missed out on/passed over without looking deep enough into it then....

Thanks folks.

 

[will33]

Where did the 3 cu.ft. for the Avatar box come from? I bet it's more like 2 - 2.25 net internally. Should have enough port area with the shelf there to be worth putting the K-lite into should you chose to go that route.

I still think the D12LF or a Dayton makes more sense though price/performance wise. Even in the bigger box, the K-lite would still be held back by whatever the weaker driver could handle. Back to buying performance you'll never get to hear again, at least not in this rig.

 

[hobbes1]

I got a reply today from PartsExpress tech support regarding the following four speakers in my 1.5cuFT/55Hz cab:

Dayton PA310
Dayton ST305
Kappalite 3012LF
Emi. Delta 12LFA

his reply:

"After modeling all four woofers they are all very similar with the PA310 and Kappalite performing the best overall. In my opinion it would not be worth the added cost for the Kappalite, these two are virtually identical."



Sincerely,



Matt


Technical Support Team

......................................

I'm looking forward to hearing how the PA310 sounds in this little cab!

 

[Minussss3db]

It's natural response puts it into a box not much different than your 1.5cu ft...so good for you... and

the second Important Point is this:
because the Dayton 310 Qts is .32, it is in the general .3 to .36 range where all the various alignments end up in an approx. same size box....

So, it means with the same closing the vents in your box, having a friend help you with the hole saw, etc...: you can have the generally tighter SBB4 alignment...( or any other alignment of your choosing)

So as a first pass, have one of the people here on this forum, or at PartsExpress model a SBB4 tuning (vent size and length) in Your Box, and try it out.

In general, I think you have gotten to a good decision!...relative to performance for price, and the general goodness of matching a good inexpensive box to a good inexpensive speaker, and having pretty good performance...

Well Done...hehe...listening today to Buena Vista Social Club Chan Chan...again and again...

Good Luck,
-3db

 

[Arjank]

his reply:

"After modeling all four woofers they are all very similar with the PA310 and Kappalite performing the best overall. In my opinion it would not be worth the added cost for the Kappalite, these two are virtually identical."

+1

IMO there are a lot of "dayton" drivers with exceptional price/performance ratio.
The 3012LF will have a slightly higher xmax though, but I guess the PA310 5mm xmax is done mathematically (voice-coil-lenght minus airgap depth / 2) which is less optimistic then the "klippeled" value of the 3012LF.

I would use the PA310 for sure

 

[hobbes1]

+1

IMO there are a lot of "dayton" drivers with exceptional price/performance ratio.
The 3012LF will have a slightly higher xmax though, but I guess the PA310 5mm xmax is done mathematically (voice-coil-lenght minus airgap depth / 2) which is less optimistic then the "klippeled" value of the 3012LF.

I would use the PA310 for sure

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I really wanted to use a Neo speaker in this box for weight saving purposes but realized in the end that paying 3x the price to shave off 10lb just isnt' worth it to me. Also, while the 3012LF is a great speaker and would work in the box, as has been pointed out, I'd likely never get the full benefit of it as the Avatar would alway limit the amount of power I could run. Lastly, The PA310 does have content above 2KHz which the 3012LF does not, so if something happened to the Avatar, I'd still be able to carry on with the DIY box and not be without any top end.
I'm thankful to all the people who chimed in on this thread to help me arrive at this decision.

 

[hobbes1]

It's natural response puts it into a box not much different than your 1.5cu ft...so good for you... and

the second Important Point is this:
because the Dayton 310 Qts is .32, it is in the general .3 to .36 range where all the various alignments end up in an approx. same size box....

So, it means with the same closing the vents in your box, having a friend help you with the hole saw, etc...: you can have the generally tighter SBB4 alignment...( or any other alignment of your choosing)

So as a first pass, have one of the people here on this forum, or at PartsExpress model a SBB4 tuning (vent size and length) in Your Box, and try it out.

In general, I think you have gotten to a good decision!...relative to performance for price, and the general goodness of matching a good inexpensive box to a good inexpensive speaker, and having pretty good performance...

Well Done...hehe...listening today to Buena Vista Social Club Chan Chan...again and again...

Good Luck,
-3db

Thanks, -3dB. I will see who the speaker sounds in the box and then try to get an idea of the other alignments as well. Would be good to know how I could improve the box even more

 

[Blues Bass 2]

This probably isn't much help but I got the 15" version of this Dayton speaker and put it in an Avatar TB153 to replace a Kappalite 3015LF that I used in a fEarful build . The only difference in the Avatar cab that I could tell after changing and gigging the cab a few times was the weight , the Dayton driver would get very loud and the cab sounded very much like it did with the Kappalite . It doesn't have the xmas of the Kappalite so it won't move quite as much air but it's still very respectable . Also the speaker seemed very well constructed .
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These are very nice speakers , well worth checking out for projects .

 

[hobbes1]

Good to know. I had always assumed that Dayton was just an inferior brand and never really paid any attention to it. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised and now that the speaker is within 100 miles of my house, just wish Brown would get a move on

 

[will33]

Dayton is Parts-express sort of "house brand". Not really bottom of the barrel budget stuff. They have some nice stuff....for home hifi as well as PA/SR stuff. I was going to use a couple of their 10's in some little vocal wedges I was making, but then we found a pair of Emi. Delta 10's living in an old Peavey cab and used those instead. Might still use some Daytons in a pair of small vocal mains to use for practice/parties, etc. and leave the big stuff at home.

Can't remember the model numbers now but it was decent quality stuff.

 

[hobbes1]

do you generally sort the Dayton good from bad just by looking at the T/S info and graphs or reviews...or?
I'm curious if there is a good way to sort through them all

 

[will33]

Yep. Just dig through specs like you would for any other speakers. When you find a couple that might work out for your application, compare them to ther makes/models that are also suitable and make a choice.

I haven't yet seen uber high performance neo woofers from them, but, ultra lightweight isn't at the top of my list of priorities. I make stuff light as is practical but am not looking to shrink stuff as if size/weight is more important than the other stuff. I find stuff that'll do what I want...then worry about if it'll be a bear to move. I like light as much as the next guy, but I'm a pretty big guy, used to physical labor, etc. I ain't paying a premium for a few pounds difference.

Odd thing...my speaker reconer here was telling me a few years back that the real advantage of neo was the ability to "focus" more of the magnetic force in the gap where the voice coil is, thus beimg able to make higher performance drivers and the lightweight was more of a side benefit. Some folks around here act as if the weight is everything.

We're bass players.....if you're measuring your gear in ounces...take up the piccolo.

 

[hobbes1]

Quick update: I received the Dayton PA310 speaker this evening. I laid the cab back and placed the speaker in it and played a bit to verify it was in working order, prior to putting all the screws back in and tightening it down.
Tone: this speaker does carry a solid low end and it has low mid and mids as well (range is 44Hz to 4400 Hz). I only have had about 10 minutes to play it loudly but the speaker sounds good and so far, I feel it will be a keeper.
Volume: I only had my Shuttle 6.0 up halfway and I was really shaking the house. It puts out quite a bit of volume. I haven't measured with my dB meter yet but once I've played it for awhile and given the speaker time to break in, I'll see what kind of SPL's I'm getting now vs. what I was getting with the Delta Pro 12a I had in previously.

While I had the speaker out, I added a bit more of the fabric batting inside and made sure none was obscuring the port area.

All in all, I feel like I made the right decision and for sure got a great speaker for $60. I would recommend this one as worth a look to anyone thinking about the higher priced Eminence (or other brand) speakers. Thanks fellow TB'ers for helping me out!