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Kappalite 3012LF vs. Delta 12LFA (please help)

#22
hobbes1 said:
OK. I got it. Yes, you hit it: fart potential and low end SPL are big considerations for me :)
Maybe this is a dumb question, but is there a way to match power (eg: watts output from amp) to Max SPL on the first graph so that I could tell at 300 watts (max output from my amp) what sort of Max SPL I'd be looking at?
Click to expand...

The full version of WinISD (and many more uptown speaker design apps) lets you input signal at any level you choose, so that sort of "what-if" scenario can be looked at to a certain degree. You can also just do the standard math fairly readily, but one big problem with doing this is that power compression isn't factored in, so actual in-cab measurements are really the best answer. Also, for the reasons ThisBass mentioned, average power with a bass guitar signal is likely to be much different than the sine wave rating of your amp. In my own design world (amps, preamps) I use recordings of me playing my basses run through my models. Always another can 'o worms...;)
 
#23
LOL you're not kidding! I've read numerous threads here on DIY and speaker building. It's nothing but cans o' worms, start to finish and opinions are like a-h*les....everyone has at least one :)

but I do appreciate those who have taken time to give me pointers and answers.
 
#24
Passinwind said:
WinISD Pro Alpha 0.7.0.900, meant for Windows 7 64 bit. I don't use this for speaker design (actually, I don't do DIY speaker design at all any more), just for occasional quick and dirty graphs on TB. In this case I inferred fart potential and low bass SPL capability as the most compelling considerations, hence my choice of those graphs.

I know nothing of the Mac world I'm afraid. ;)
Click to expand...

WIN-ISD itself is very often very faulty (at calculated port dimensions).
 
#25
hobbes1 said:
OK. I got it. Yes, you hit it: fart potential and low end SPL are big considerations for me :)
Maybe this is a dumb question, but is there a way to match power (eg: watts output from amp) to Max SPL on the first graph so that I could tell at 300 watts (max output from my amp) what sort of Max SPL I'd be looking at?
Click to expand...

Hm, I did not considered the subject just this moment (because it is now very late at GMT).

May be Passonwind has got the answer. I don't like to upload impressing charts ....
 
#26
hobbes1 said:
OK. I got it. Yes, you hit it: fart potential and low end SPL are big considerations for me :)
Maybe this is a dumb question, but is there a way to match power (eg: watts output from amp) to Max SPL on the first graph so that I could tell at 300 watts (max output from my amp) what sort of Max SPL I'd be looking at?
Click to expand...

No, that is not possible.
If anybody else tells you a different story you have to call him a liar.
 
#27
hobbes1 said:
LOL you're not kidding! I've read numerous threads here on DIY and speaker building. It's nothing but cans o' worms, start to finish and opinions are like a-h*les....everyone has at least one :)

but I do appreciate those who have taken time to give me pointers and answers.
Click to expand...

Juts to add more worms, have you confirmed whether your Avatar has a stock DL2512 or an OEM model like Avatar often seems to use?

In all honesty, my primary knee jerk response is that no 12" driver in this price class is likely to do quite what you're asking for in a 1.5 cu ft box. I'd be perfectly happy to see this proven otherwise though.
 
#28
Thanks ThisBass and Passinwind. I have confirmed with Dave at Avatar that the speaker I have is one "their" OEM NEo Delatalites. So I know what I have there.
I guess what I'm wondering is, knowing that the Kappalite 3012LF, for example, is a lower sensitivity than the Avatar, all other things in this thread aside: does this mean that the speaker would not be able to be heard over the avatar at equivalent power inputs? is that really the bottom line?
 
#30
Passinwind said:
In all honesty, my primary knee jerk response is that no 12" driver in this price class is likely to do quite what you're asking for in a 1.5 cu ft box. I'd be perfectly happy to see this proven otherwise though.
Click to expand...
The Definimax 4012HO is right at home in 1.31 cubic feet, net.
It is displacement limited to about 47 volts at 46 Hz and 75 Hz, 120 SPL at this voltage at 90 Hz and up.
F3 is near 56 Hz.
 
#32
bgavin said:
The Definimax 4012HO is right at home in 1.31 cubic feet, net.
It is displacement limited to about 47 volts at 46 Hz and 75 Hz, 120 SPL at this voltage at 90 Hz and up.
F3 is near 56 Hz.
Click to expand...

Right at home, but will it meet the OP's goal of adding some tight low end to the SB112. The Eminence application note includes a vented 2.2 cf design that comes a lot closer. The goal is not to get a 12 inch bass driver to just 'work' (be right at home) in a small cab (like the OP's 1.5 cf box), but to improve on the low end performance of the SB112. Is there a 12 inch driver of comparable sensitivity to the OEM Deltalite 2512 used in the SB112 that can provide improved low end response (relative to the 3cf SB112) when used in a 1.5 cf vented cab?

An issue not discussed so far is the blending of the 2 cabs. This is really no different than blending say a 15 and a 10. It's not about differing driver sizes, but about differing amplitude and phase response, and dispersion.
 
#33
yeah, that's definitely a consideration, AstroSonic. The reason I'm open to this blending of speakers is the Delta pro 12a I have in the small cab now works well enough but just doensn't reinforce the low end as much as I'd like. I realize that because one works doesn't mean another will or won't. As someone said earlier, it is something of a crapshoot.
What I'm trying to do with this thread is figure out which speaker may be the best choice for my existing small cab based on as much data as is available and can be processed in software models. Also, at the same time, realizing that it's not likely to be a perfect solution and it may not work. I'm trying to avoid purchasing (and selling, if unsuitable) multiple speakers to try them out, if at all possible. I could simply bide my time and hope for another Avatar SB112 Neo to come on the market at a good price (I don't buy gear new anymore if I can help it) but was hoping to be able to use the cab I have and if I could switch to a Neo speaker that works well, I'd have a cab that is small in footprint and weighs ~31 pounds....also VERY appealing to me :)
 
#36
hobbes1:
I think you should consider this speaker if you really want the 1.5cuft box...

It has an actual efficiency very close to the DeltaLite2512,

and a 7.2mm Xmax, 500W Aes,
Fs = 45 Hz
Qts = .26
Vas = 70L/2.46cuft
$199 at USSpeaker,
($300 for similar from Beyma or 18sound.,,,)
This speaker will be the closest for the price that will actually work in your box...(with different venting: you will still have to change the venting, and get it close to equivalent of 3.5"Diam X 3.875" tube. If it were me, I would put a couple of pieces of plywood over the existing vents, have a friend help you cut, using a hole saw, the 3.5" ID hole. And then do a little cross wall bracing with 1x2's inside the Cabinet. Check with the others first and see anyone can help you get confident with a decision. )

Ask rpSands & Passinwind their opinions, and their thoughts based on some more models, but I think it looks like this, or bite off the DIY route with a somewhat larger box.

Sincerely,
Good Luck,
-3db
 
#38
Hobbes,

Given the pieces you have to work with perhaps it's worth looking at this a little differently. You would like better performance in the mid and deep bass than you are getting with the SB112. To accomplish this you have a 1.5 cf vented box, and the SB112: a 3 cf vented box with a oem version of the deltalite 2512, and a crossover (HP only?) and horn tweeter. Why not put the 2512 in the 1.5 cf box and look for a better performing driver in the 3 cf box (and probably retune). The improved performance you are looking for can be had from several available drivers in a 3 cf cab. Not sure how the OEM deltalite 2512 will perform in the 1.5 cf box, but a top quality driver in the 3 cf box may not even require the additional (1.5 cf) cab anyway.

Re: the sensitivity of the OEM driver. Given it's extended voice coil and (assumed) use of the same magnetic structure and magnet, its sensitivity MUST be lower than the standard driver. Based on the Eminence data sheet, it looks like around 97-98 db/w/m below the gradual 8db rise in the top of its range (above 1kHz). The OEM driver 'may' meet the claimed 98db if the spec is based on the sensitivity at the top of that rise. Otherwise, the OEM driver is likely closer to 90-93db/w/m (in the 200-1000Hz range).
 
#39
rpsands said:
I doubt that since the real deltalite is closer to 94db calculated.
Click to expand...

Hopefully, you were expressing doubt about the speaker spec, but just in case you were expressing doubt of me vs. doubt of what Dave said, here is the exchange :)

From: Avatar Speakers <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Avatar SB112

HI they are about 98 db ish...
Regards,
Dave
AvatarSpeakers.com
www.facebook.com/avatarspeakers
(208) 762-5251
PayPal: [email protected]
Please check out our ordering page for payment instructions.
http://www.avatarspeakers.com/ordering.htm

From:
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 11:09 AM
To: Avatar Speakers
Subject: Re: Avatar SB112

Hey Dave,
Do you by any chance have the sensitivity rating for these 1x12's (X dB at 1W/1 meter type of info)?
Just curious as they are pretty loud for small enclosures.
Thanks
 
#40
-3dB: thanks much for your thoughts. I'll look into those as well. The B&C price is up there enough that I could get a second SB112 Neo and call it a day (maybe :) ) for that or less money. The Faital at least is still probably cheaper than a new cab all around and I suppose I could use 1"x2" pieces to block up the port and then put another round port on the back of the small cab I have. wouldn't be too terribly difficult, I suppose. Thanks for your thoughts!
 

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