Double Bass Karr vs Rabbath, Bow Technique

[Mark_T]

Thanks again Louis, that's very revealing about the Karr Bass!
It seems to be a very difficult and temperamental instrument to play and it is quite possible that much of Karr's method derived from playing this instrument. However, as most of us are aware, if you can develop a technique to produce a nice tone from a difficult bass, playing a more forgiving bass with this technique ought to be very rewarding.

From the very opposite direction, I have a good friend who studied music in college but dropped out. He has always played on a plywood King and a cheap bow, but he gets a great sound and always has. I definitely wonder what he'd sound like on a really good bass.

 

[Notaluthier]

Never. Can't stand Bottesini. How you been?

I hope that was satire…

 

[Paps]

Did Bottesini start out on Viola, couldn't hack it and went over to Bass?
If so, can I ask the moderators to delete this post!

 

[neilG]

I hope that was satire…

Back when, there was a well-known reviewer of recordings for Fanfare Magazine, Robert Maxham, who penned this review of a recording someone made of Bottesini's works:
".... Bottesini's (works) are shells from which the living creatures that extruded them have long since withdrawn."
I share his view on Bottesini's music. So, no, not satire.

 

[Brilee]

Back when, there was a well-known reviewer of recordings for Fanfare Magazine, Robert Maxham, who penned this review of a recording someone made of Bottesini's works:
".... Bottesini's (works) are shells from which the living creatures that extruded them have long since withdrawn."
I share his view on Bottesini's music. So, no, not satire.

Have a friend who used to say of such works "about as deep as a cookie sheet".

 

[garrett2]

I'm not a big fan of Bottesini, but George Martin is sure able to give that shell life. That seems the challenge, to play the hermit crab.

 

[Mark_T]

I'm not a big fan of Bottesini, but George Martin is sure able to give that shell life. That seems the challenge, to play the hermit crab.

Surely you mean Thomas, right? But I agree. Also without Bottesini there’d be so much less music for us to play, both in terms if what he produced and in terms of what he inspired or taught in those that came after him.

 

[Paps]

Here's a 20 yo Karr playing the Swan. I think this is one of the best versions I've ever herd!
I tried to find Rabbath playing the same thing, but had no success.

 

[garrett2]

Whoops, yes Thomas Martin. It's fascinating to watch the videos on Stringvirtuoso of Christine Hoock, Leon Bosch, and Thierry Barbe playing Elegy 1. Each invests it with a different feeling. Hoock's tutorial is very interesting in how she talks about her changing relation to the piece over her career.
But I am definitely more of a Bach type!

 

[neilG]

I'm not a big fan of Bottesini, but George Martin is sure able to give that shell life. That seems the challenge, to play the hermit crab.

Absolutely. There's an old story of some famous violinist, maybe Milstein, who was dared to go out on stage and play scales and arpeggios as an encore. Probably brought the house down. Sometimes personality overcomes the shortcomings of the music. It's a gift to find a story in even the silliest of pieces.

 

[walking_line]

I played for Karr in a master class, many years ago, when I was starting out. He opted to teach me his technique of bowing close to the bridge by having me raise my bass really high (like, way too high to play) and try to finger the left hand while he bowed the bass, you guessed it, right on top of the bridge.

I get what he was trying to teach me, but man, that was an uncomfortable 10 minutes of my life.

FWIW, that sound works for him, but for the other 99.9% not-full-time-soloist bass players, there’s a takeaway there, but that sound is not really very useful in most situations.

 

[jheise]

I played for Karr in a master class, many years ago, when I was starting out. He opted to teach me his technique of bowing close to the bridge by having me raise my bass really high (like, way too high to play) and try to finger the left hand while he bowed the bass, you guessed it, right on top of the bridge.

I get what he was trying to teach me, but man, that was an uncomfortable 10 minutes of my life.

FWIW, that sound works for him, but for the other 99.9% not-full-time-soloist bass players, there’s a takeaway there, but that sound is not really very useful in most situations.

So you also never stray from half position? Because those other notes and sounds only work for the 0.1% top level players/soloists, but that's not where the money is for the rest of us? And also, it feels so uncomfortable up there...

 

[walking_line]

So you also never stray from half position? Because those other notes and sounds only work for the 0.1% top level players/soloists, but that's not where the money is for the rest of us? And also, it feels so uncomfortable up there...

Well, I’m not sure I’d go that far—I play all over the fingerboard, and, as is natural, and generally agreed upon “good technique”, my bow gets closer to the bridge the higher up the fingerboard the left hand goes.

Just as a general rule, I try to not sound like a laser beam. But that’s just me.

 

[jheise]

Well, I’m not sure I’d go that far—I play all over the fingerboard, and, as is natural, and generally agreed upon “good technique”, my bow gets closer to the bridge the higher up the fingerboard the left hand goes.

Just as a general rule, I try to not sound like a laser beam. But that’s just me.

See, that's the point where I'm fine, you wrote: "I try not to sound the way I don't want to sound." - but your generalizations in the first post - sorry. I humbly think that you did not get what Gary was trying to teach you.

 

[walking_line]

See, that's the point where I'm fine, you wrote: "I try not to sound the way I don't want to sound." - but your generalizations in the first post - sorry. I humbly think that you did not get what Gary was trying to teach you.

Hokay dude.

Cue eye roll.

 

[LouisF]

Paps: re the Bernstein/Karr recording of The Swan-- it's probably closer to 60 years old!!

The really important thing to consider in this recording is Bernstein's commentary on the bass as "ungainly" etc and how there are never any "solo bass recitals".

Whatever one thinks of Karr's technique or sound (which I think is pretty amazing in the Saint Saens), Gary almost single-handedly changed the perception of the bass as a solo instrument, leading the way to where we are today, with different "schools" of solo playing, advanced techniques, and technical innovations in bass building (and string development) that allow the bass to be the equal of any other solo instrument in the orchestra.

 

[Paps]

Paps: re the Bernstein/Karr recording of The Swan-- it's probably closer to 60 years old!!

The really important thing to consider in this recording is Bernstein's commentary on the bass as "ungainly" etc and how there are never any "solo bass recitals".

Whatever one thinks of Karr's technique or sound (which I think is pretty amazing in the Saint Saens), Gary almost single-handedly changed the perception of the bass as a solo instrument, leading the way to where we are today, with different "schools" of solo playing, advanced techniques, and technical innovations in bass building (and string development) that allow the bass to be the equal of any other solo instrument in the orchestra.

Yes, Karr was 20 yo at the time, he's now 80 so we're both right.
I'm having difficulty finding Rabbath playing normal repertoire to compare with others.
I did find a Bach suite, and although his sound was brighter, I thought the Meyer and Quarrington recordings were as good. I especially like the Meyer version. Darker, more simple, tuning and tone were steady.

 

[Notaluthier]

Back when, there was a well-known reviewer of recordings for Fanfare Magazine, Robert Maxham, who penned this review of a recording someone made of Bottesini's works:
".... Bottesini's (works) are shells from which the living creatures that extruded them have long since withdrawn."
I share his view on Bottesini's music. So, no, not satire.

What composers do you prefer for solo work?

 

[neilG]

What composers do you prefer for solo work?

I don't get called to play solos much (ever), but even so, that's kind of a broad question. For what kind of solo work; a concerto, a full recital, one piece on a program? What period?

 

[Notaluthier]

I don't get called to play solos much (ever), but even so, that's kind of a broad question. For what kind of solo work; a concerto, a full recital, one piece on a program? What period?

If you were called to play a bass concerto with an orchestra, which composer would you choose?