Double Bass Karr vs Rabbath, Bow Technique

[Paps]

I'd be interested if anyone has any views on the merits of the very different approaches to bowing advocated by these greats of Double Bass.
I grew up with Karr as the top bassist and liked his sound but nowadays more people seem to be promoting Rabbath's ideas. I also like Rabbath's brighter sound.
I use French Bow, but Karr's ideas also translate to French. As far as I can see some of the differences are:

1. Karr promotes bowing near the bridge for all notes on all strings, letting the volume required and the string bowed determine the bow speed; using the natural response of the string and the bass produce the sound.
2. Rabbath promotes the "Son premier", which is a different sounding point for each note based on the location of the 7th partial harmonic. Apparently this requires a higher bow speed. For open strings the resulting Rabbath bow placement is over the end of the finger board. Sul tasto.
3. For French bow, Karr suggests keeping the elbow and wrist fairly straight, using a longer arm and emphasising shoulder and back muscles.
4. Rabbath bends the elbow and especially the wrist more, and encourages wrist and finger motion especially at the end of the up and down bows.
5. Both encourage flat contact of all the hair with the string.

What I like about Karr's approach is that a slower bow speed can result in a strong tone and the bowing placement is consistent. His tone seems to be excellent for all notes. I like, but don't love his tone which can be harsh, but a diluted version, not quite as near the bridge may be a compromise.

What I like about Rabbath, is the bent wrist and elbow seems more comfortable and natural especially for faster passages.

Any ideas or experience?

 

[jj.833]

I play German, but I guess this will be the same. Faster bowing closer to fingerboard results in consistent sound with softer attack, kind of relaxed voice. Stronger and slower bowing nearer to the bridge can make louder and longer sound, but may sound harsh and is more prone to inconsistencies, it's harder to tame harsh open G, for instance. I practice both ways and when I can choose, I prefer faster bowing for its warmness.
Hard to find good describing words...

 

[Paps]

Yes. The difference for me would be bass height.
If I decided to work on Karr's method, I would have to put my bass up a few notches so the bow is naturally nearer the bridge.
With Rabbath, a lower bass height would work because when going for the higher notes with the left hand, I would bend forward resulting in bowing nearer the bridge for the Son Premier.
However, I do like the idea of slower bow speed with consistent bow placement as Karr suggests.

 

[the_Ryan]

Putting all my cards out on the table: I’m not the biggest fan of Gary Karr’s bowing technique and I have spent the last several years studying Francois Rabbath’s bowing technique (originally on French bow, and now applying those concepts to the German bow since I switched bow holds a few years back). I am not suggesting that playing close to the bridge (even in the lowest registers of the instrument) is a bad thing at all and there are many times where I want that super focused sound, but it’s only one tone color and there are so many others to explore that lie between the end of the fingerboard and bridge.

The other main issue I have with a consistent bow placement is that as the register changes in the left hand, the partial that the bow is bowing is constantly changing even though the bow placement on the string is consistent. If we take Rabbath’s 7th partial as the default, for an open string the bow will be located pretty much just past the fingerboard; if you want to play the octave harmonic, the bow will have to move closer to the bridge until it is on the 7th partial of that note; for the 2-octave harmonic the bow will need to be even closer to the bridge. If I was going to keep my bow in the placement for the 2-octave harmonic, the open string and the octave harmonic are going to be much brighter than the 2-octave harmonic. All that changing of bow placement (relative to the open string) is quite difficult to manage if I were to move my bow vertically for every note, so Rabbath’s “compromise” is to keep the distance between the bow and the shoulder the same and to move your upper body (by hinging from the hips and NOT bending the upper back) as you change position: as your left hand is moving higher in pitch, you have to hinge from your hips to reach those pitches, and the act of hinging the hips is what places the bow. There are situations where this rule does break down (chords using open strings, harmonics in lower positions, octaves/unisons on 2 strings, etc.), and some trial and error is needed to find the correct bow placement in those situations.

Both bowing methods do emphasize releasing your arm and body weight into the string as opposed to pressing the bow into the string, but I do prefer Rabbath’s method of keeping the elbow and wrist free and loose as opposed to straight. Almost none of our bow strokes are entirely generated by the elbow, wrist, or fingers, but they do move as a consequence of the body and upper arm moving (Francois uses the analogy that the upper arm and the body are the conductor and the forearm, wrist, and fingers are the orchestra).

If you haven’t, I highly recommend watching Art of the Bow for examples of Francois’s bow technique in detail.

 

[Matt Zory]

Obviously this is from my experience and opinion. Bow right up on the bridge always—gawd awful idea (especially lower positions). What kind of music are you playing—are you playing in a section? The players sitting around you don’t want to hear that sound or try to blend with it. And you probably wouldn’t be able to get things to speak with the bow on the bridge besides. If you’re banging away at Bottesini or whatever…maybe…but mmmm, maybe not then either.

 

[neilG]

If you’re banging away at Bottesini or whatever….

Never. Can't stand Bottesini. How you been?

 

[jheise]

[...] not quite as near the bridge may be a compromise.[...]

The important thing is, that Gary developed his technique because of the sound he wanted. So he bows closer to the bridge than others do. But the position of the bow changes quite a bit. He usually encouraged us to bow closer to the bridge during my visits at his summer camp so that we would get the feel of it and broaden our palette of colours available to us and to project better. He left "telling to bow closer to the fingerboard" and other things to our teachers at home (he never said it like that) because he wanted to counterbalance the usually "100% traditional teachings" we would get at home - and he only got 1 month and our teachers at home the other months out of the year. But in the end (IMHO) it was about finding your own voice by going to all the extremes you can think of so you can make up your mind on how *you* want to sound.

 

[jheise]

What kind of music are you playing—are you playing in a section? The players sitting around you don’t want to hear that sound or try to blend with it.

Have to comment on this but please read it with a bit of humor ;-)

As an amateur, I can keep the bland and boring playing and sound to rehearsals and performances with the orchestra. I don't need to practice it at home or give it extra attention.

 

[Matt Zory]

Never. Can't stand Bottesini. How you been?

Hahaha! Finally learned some and performed it (!!) in my mid-50’s. It was kinda like my graduation recital 30 yrs late! All is well. On year 2 of retirement from corporate music making.

 

[garrett2]

Karr definitely moves his bow towards the fingerboard when it suits him. It's interesting to compare him with the third bassist who seems to be mostly hunting for the 7th harmonic.

 

[koricancowboy]

What is your teacher telling you?

 

[Paps]

My teacher's more along the Rabbath line, so that's what I'll probably end up doing.
But at the moment I am experimenting with bow positions.
Trying Karr's method is certainly giving me more feeling and sensitivity to bow movement, speed and weight and helping me work with the bass's natural response and resonance.
This indulgence is also helping in that even with Rabbath, many notes should be bowed near the bridge to get that 7th partial.
However, I'm not sure if yet recognise a particular sound which indicates that I am at the correct part of the string?

 

[koricancowboy]

You should definitely be moving your bow in relation to your left hand. That is, your bow moves closer to the bridge as your left hand ascends into higher positions.

It seems to me that much of what Karr was doing was in regard to elevating the bass as a solo instrument. That is, to emulate the brightness, clarity, and projection of the bass to equal say, the cello. I think modern setup techniques have largely mitigated that need unless you are truly going for a strident, upper position cello tone. (Viola like in many regards).

I tend to play that close to the bridge as an effect rather than as a norm. YMMV.

 

[LouisF]

I think a lot of the Karr bowing technique was in response to his training (especially the Russian bass teacher he worked with on "Russian bel canto style" phrasing etc), strings etc available at the time, and, most importantly IMO, the Karr-Koussevitsky "Amati" (not an Amati) bass he soloed with.

I had one lesson on the bass years ago with Dennis Trembly (Koussevitsky is still spinning in his grave!) and the bass sounded best - in that singing, lyrical way - when bowed close to the bridge.

There is more insight (by a much better bassist) here:
What it's like playing Gary Karr's old "Amati" double bass - Double Bass HQ

There is also more info here:

191: David Murray on the Karr sound, bow technique, and the spirit of Koussevitzky

and Mr Karr himself:

I've never studied the Rabbath method or with Rabbath (although we did meet and he did compliment me on my French!), so I have nothing to add on that side.

 

[the_Ryan]

My teacher's more along the Rabbath line, so that's what I'll probably end up doing.
But at the moment I am experimenting with bow positions.
Trying Karr's method is certainly giving me more feeling and sensitivity to bow movement, speed and weight and helping me work with the bass's natural response and resonance.
This indulgence is also helping in that even with Rabbath, many notes should be bowed near the bridge to get that 7th partial.
However, I'm not sure if yet recognise a particular sound which indicates that I am at the correct part of the string?

It’s kind of hard to hear at first, but if you’re in the correct spot there should be no difference in tone between the bowed note and the release (taking the bow off the string and letting it ring). This is easiest to hear with open strings: if the bow is too close to the fingerboard the resonance/overtones will start closed and open up (“wah”) and if it’s too close to the bridge the resonance will start open and then kind of close (“ow”).

I do want to emphasize that while I like and want the son premier to be my default, in actual playing (particularly in the orchestra, but solo too) I am constantly changing my bow placement depending on the sound I want, dynamics, how the bow responds on the string, etc.

 

[Paps]

Yes, I agree that Karr's sound suits solo playing especially well.
His volume, projection and penetration above an Orchestra or accompanist is incredible.
The other advantage of Karr's method is it seems possible to get more volume with less effort.
Also the dynamic range seems wider, from whispering yet penetrating piano's to loud, piercing fortes.
Regarding the son premier, is there much of a difference in heard sound if the sweet spot, 7th partial is missed?
What I mean, is this sound as distinctive?
Also, I meant to say the Karr sound was "brighter" to correct my error.
Yes, more harmonics are generated near the bridge.

 

[garrett2]

There are different ways to be heard over an orchestra. One can plow through it, pick a path of less resistance, or float above it. There are opera singers who did not sing with great volume but learned how to be heard over or through an orchestra despite their small voices -- Bidu Sayao was a great example. I don't know if it applies in the same way to a lower register instrument, but it definitely applies to bass voices.

 

[Mark_T]

I am constantly working to bring my contact point lower (for whatever reason, my default has always been on the high side), but I've never managed to get a great sound right by the bridge. I must lack the technique (or weight, or rosin?) for getting the bow to grab down there. Moreover, I have to use very slow bow changes to get notes to articulate. I don't know how all these people are doing it.

I grew up greatly inspired by Karr, but I don't particularly love the strident sound he sometimes cultivated. On the flip side, Rabbath can get overly breathy to me. Maybe I'm a little milquetoast but I feel like disciples of both have moderated a little bit and come up with sounds closer to what I have in my mind.

 

[Paps]

Whatever Joel Quarrington or Edgar Meyer are doing is fine by me!

 

[Paps]

I think a lot of the Karr bowing technique was in response to his training (especially the Russian bass teacher he worked with on "Russian bel canto style" phrasing etc), strings etc available at the time, and, most importantly IMO, the Karr-Koussevitsky "Amati" (not an Amati) bass he soloed with.

I had one lesson on the bass years ago with Dennis Trembly (Koussevitsky is still spinning in his grave!) and the bass sounded best - in that singing, lyrical way - when bowed close to the bridge.

There is more insight (by a much better bassist) here:
What it's like playing Gary Karr's old "Amati" double bass - Double Bass HQ

There is also more info here:

191: David Murray on the Karr sound, bow technique, and the spirit of Koussevitzky

and Mr Karr himself:

I've never studied the Rabbath method or with Rabbath (although we did meet and he did compliment me on my French!), so I have nothing to add on that side.

Thanks again Louis, that's very revealing about the Karr Bass!
It seems to be a very difficult and temperamental instrument to play and it is quite possible that much of Karr's method derived from playing this instrument. However, as most of us are aware, if you can develop a technique to produce a nice tone from a difficult bass, playing a more forgiving bass with this technique ought to be very rewarding.