Keyboard bassist - what the hell is he doing!?!

[Cougar]

Guys,

OK - so I play church music with a keyboard guy and me on bass. The keyboard player likes to go into the bass register and play his own baseline. The problem is, even though I play root notes ONLY, his bas line (he likes to play walking basslines) and mine do not sound good together (lots of dissonance). So I have to keep reminding him not to play bass when we play together!!! However, I notice that when he plays alone, his baseline sounds OK - not dissonant. The question that I have is this: why is that whenI play a baseline with just root notes and he plays his baseline at the same time we get dissonance, but when he plays his bassline alone, it sounds OK? I would think that if he was playing wrong notes in the baseline, you would still get dissonance even when he plays alone because they would still clash with the chord root notes.

Cougar

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Guys,

OK - so I play church music with a keyboard guy and me on bass. The keyboard player likes to go into the bass register and play his own baseline. The problem is, even though I play root notes ONLY, his bas line (he likes to play walking basslines) and mine do not sound good together (lots of dissonance). So I have to keep reminding him not to play bass when we play together!!! However, I notice that when he plays alone, his baseline sounds OK - not dissonant. The question that I have is this: why is that whenI play a baseline with just root notes and he plays his baseline at the same time we get dissonance, but when he plays his bassline alone, it sounds OK? I would think that if he was playing wrong notes in the baseline, you would still get dissonance even when he plays alone because they would still clash with the chord root notes.

Cougar

This kind of question is almost a permanent "dweller" here at TB.

My short answer is the same:
You have a keyboard player who has NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT PLAYING IN THE BAND.

NO IFS NO BUTS.

 

[MrLenny1]

I had a similar situation with 80's keyboardist when they dominated
the music scene and put bass players out of work.
IMHO I could hear differences in volume and tone and slight timing causing dissonance.
Drove me nuts, I quit.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Why is it that your notes do not sound good when you play together? You are not augmenting each other you are competing with each other.

The keyboard does need to cut you some space. We have several keyboard / bassists on here that can explain how you can play better together. I would hope they chime in.

We at times, in our church band, have two keyboards going and thank goodness I do not have a problem with either of them. Only thing I can think of is they do not walk the bass clef, but, beyond that I bow to the keyboardists to help you.

 

[wrench45us]

Walking lines by their nature use notes that lead to the next chord using scalar or chromatic notes that aren't necessarily 'consonant' chord tones.
Leading to the next chord often creates a certain dissonance and tension that resolves with the next chord.
It doesn't sound bad by itself because your ear is being led along to the next chord, but combined with a held root note, it's like trying to move along and hold still at the same time.
The keyboard player needs to understand his role in a band setting.

 

[Atshen]

Cut his left hand off.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

...The keyboard player needs to understand his role in a band setting.

+1.

 

[DWBass]

Been there! First, he does not know how to play with a band. He's so used to playing by himself. He needs to be schooled. Secondly, if you both are not playing the exact same thing at the same exact time, it's gonna sound like mud. He needs to understand that there is a bass player in the band so there is NO need for him to play bass. I subbed for a band once and they had a keyboardist who was so heavy with his left hand that I stopped playing altogether and picked up some sticks and played percussion for the rest of the night. Never even realized I was no longer playing.

 

[Rynojackax]

I believe that the reason might be you guys are both playing at certain frequency ranges. You both are playing in a range that is supposed to be for bass, in this case. It would be like you playing chords constantly on your bass the whole time. Such as a Major 3rd, Perfect 5th, minor 7th, and those intervals might not sound good in the bass voices. The notes being too close could cause some dissonances, but honestly the keyboardist should cut you some slack. He has the biggest range, tell him to take a hike out of the lower register.

 

[SamJ]

many great examples of keyboard heavy bands that work with bass.. Duran Duran comes to mind, as does Spandau Ballet and more classic stuff like Genesis or Yes... just have him listen to them for a bit.

 

[markjsmithbass]

If he's playing a walking bassline and you're not playing the line together it's always going to sound a bit weird if only because of there being so much movement in the low register. As far as the melodic clashes go, just because you play the root doesn't mean other chord tones won't clash. If it's a Cmaj7, you play a C and he plays a B that's going to give you some dissonance that wants to resolve. So even if he sticks to chord tones only, there's going to be an in/out of tension going on in that low area. If he uses scale notes or chromatics along with that then you've got a Whooaaah Horsey! situation going on. I'd have a quiet word with this guy if I were you.

I've heard some rock n roll walking piano lines occasionally work with a different bass line, sort of, but I always feel that it would be better with the two playing together or not at all.

 

[Atshen]

I've heard some rock n roll walking piano lines occasionally work with a different bass line...

Most of the time it's a double bass playing a simple root-5th pattern.

 

[trothwell]

Although I think of myself predominantly as a bass player, I play keyboards at church. Our bass player does mostly roots, as you describe. Some songs, in my opinion, call for walking bass lines, or more funky rhythms on the bass, but he's still learning. I have to try hard to avoid playing such things in the left hand, precisely because it would clash.

It might be acceptable if I played nothing in the left hand at all. I usually play roots, and try to keep it as basic as I can.

Why would roots on the bass + walking on the left-hand piano clash? Lower notes tend to clash in general, unless they are the same note. Try it on a piano (or on a bass): play a major third interval (both notes at once, a harmonic interval). If you play it high on the instrument, it sounds nice. If you play it low on the instrument, it doesn't sound so nice. Below approximately the G below middle C, it tends to sound better to have all instruments on the same note, rather than playing intervals.

With the proviso, of course, that in practice you can do whatever you want, there are no rules, arrange how you think sounds best, etc., etc. But it's not surprising at all to me that you'd hear perceived dissonance even with what, when played higher up, are pleasing intervals.

 

[Nuka]

Although I think of myself predominantly as a bass player, I play keyboards at church. Our bass player does mostly roots, as you describe. Some songs, in my opinion, call for walking bass lines, or more funky rhythms on the bass, but he's still learning. I have to try hard to avoid playing such things in the left hand, precisely because it would clash.

It might be acceptable if I played nothing in the left hand at all. I usually play roots, and try to keep it as basic as I can.

Why would roots on the bass + walking on the left-hand piano clash? Lower notes tend to clash in general, unless they are the same note. Try it on a piano (or on a bass): play a major third interval (both notes at once, a harmonic interval). If you play it high on the instrument, it sounds nice. If you play it low on the instrument, it doesn't sound so nice. Below approximately the G below middle C, it tends to sound better to have all instruments on the same note, rather than playing intervals.

With the proviso, of course, that in practice you can do whatever you want, there are no rules, arrange how you think sounds best, etc., etc. But it's not surprising at all to me that you'd hear perceived dissonance even with what, when played higher up, are pleasing intervals.

This is really helpful, thanks. I have been struggling (had another thread about it) with multiple bass guitars or SUBs in a jam session, and I think, after reading this thread, that this was precisely our issue... we had some people walking, and those passing notes and chromatic runs etc just sounded awfully dissonant so close to another bass line.

 

[Spin Doctor]

It might be acceptable if I played nothing in the left hand at all. I usually play roots, and try to keep it as basic as I can.

Why would roots on the bass + walking on the left-hand piano clash? Lower notes tend to clash in general, unless they are the same note. Try it on a piano (or on a bass): play a major third interval (both notes at once, a harmonic interval). If you play it high on the instrument, it sounds nice. If you play it low on the instrument, it doesn't sound so nice. Below approximately the G below middle C, it tends to sound better to have all instruments on the same note, rather than playing intervals.

With the proviso, of course, that in practice you can do whatever you want, there are no rules, arrange how you think sounds best, etc., etc. But it's not surprising at all to me that you'd hear perceived dissonance even with what, when played higher up, are pleasing intervals.

Keyboardist need to take a clue from jazz pianist and learn to play rootless chord voicings. There is no law that says a keyboard has to play root notes, especially in a group setting. And they should absolutely NEVER be playing bass notes, with a bassist present. it's just laziness, lack of knowledge or both. It's not a difficult concept... Any decent keyboard player should be able to play either style without having to think about it.

3rd and 7th in the left hand (you can switch these around for good voice leading) 5th and some color tone in the right. All you need is 4 fingers. Less, if there is a guitar player or 3...

 

[Flatwoundround]

I had a similiar situation when playing with some guys where the keyboard player was playing in my sonic space. It sounded like bull excrement and so strange that the key board player seemed oblivious to the obvious clash. I found my temporary solution to deal with it was I went up high on the neck and just comped on some chords and tried to make it interesting by playing inversions etc. It worked out pretty good because A) I got to practice my chords on the bass B) I quickly realized how much rhythmic propulsion bass has over a guitar and C) all the guys in the band insisted that I play the bassline and not the key board player.

 

[SBsoundguy]

Cut his left hand off.

Good idea! Search the old testament for answers.

 

[JimK]

Keyboardist need to take a clue from jazz pianist and learn to play rootless chord voicings. There is no law that says a keyboard has to play root notes, especially in a group setting. And they should absolutely NEVER be playing bass notes, with a bassist present. it's just laziness, lack of knowledge or both. It's not a difficult concept... Any decent keyboard player should be able to play either style without having to think about it.

Same, too, for guitarists, IMO.
...one of my favourite guitarist is Steve Khan, a master at playing cool voicings on the D-G-B-E strings.
Eschewing the E-A strings for chords allows the bassist (i.e. Anthony Jackson in Khan's Eyewitness group) a lot of freedom and responsibility.

 

[BazzTard]

Maybe if you played something OTHER than root notes he wouldn't have to play creative melodic basslines for you?

 

[Jhengsman]

Maybe if you played something OTHER than root notes he wouldn't have to play creative melodic basslines for you?

I remember the pride I felt when my pianist stopped playing low fills as my skills improved. However in this case if the bassist can hear a problem and the keys can't either the keys man is the inexperienced man in the band or he can't hear the bass in the monitor mix, which also suggest he is inexperienced in playing in bands or he would ask for more bass guitar in his monitor mix knowing there could be a problem