Keyboard players with heavy left hands

[Pocket Dave]

You guys are complicating things. It's really pretty simple.

1. DON'T use the headstock of your bass to whack the keyboard player in the back of the head, tempting as that may sound
2. DO gaff tape or tie-wrap keyboardists left hand around his lap if he just can't resist clashing with the bass lines. DON'T use duct tape - It leaves a residue that might be used against you at your assault trial
3. DO fire the drummer.

 

[klokker]

There are hundreds of songs where the keys double the bass.

Seems to make the point even more clear. Should be able to hear both. That would be the point.

 

[Sam Evans]

Seem to make the point even more clear. Should be able to hear both. That would be the point.

Yep, I've made that point multiple times, including earlier in this thread. Glad we agree.

 

[JazznFunk]

There are hundreds of songs where the keys double the bass.

They are not the norm though, and usually they are composed with that specifically in mind. Otherwise, it's a failure of the keyboardist to recognize that they do not have to voice every chord with the root in it, nor does it have to be in the same octave if they do (i.e. recognize when to leave the root out or invert the chord!)

 

[Low Main]

Reminds me of the old line about the bassist telling the piano player not to play below the "S" on the Steinway logo.
I'm always in awe of how folks who can play a lot of keyboard like Michael McDonald do so well in a band situation. I can always hear the bass even though Michael gets such a full sound on his instrument. Herbie Hancock too - when he played his hot rodded Rhodes on albums like Thrust, Paul Jackson still jumps out of the mix and basically takes over the tune with drummer Mike Clark. To my delight.
If the keyboard player has a versatile rig, he can alter his sound to take out some of the low end mud on Rhodes, Wurli and Hammond patches so that even if he does go low it doesn't clutter up the register. And good band bassists like Trevor from Goose crank out a well crafted tight sound that always sounds right in the mix even though the keys player has a lot of boards in his rig with a lot of options.
I worry about drummers with a wide open kick like Keith Carlock. What a great player, but I don't know how you walk in with a P bass and get heard next to his thunder. Tim Lefebvre can certainly do it. I like a fat tight kick drum sound via creative muffing that doesn't ring out and swamp the bassist.
Like Tosh said, a 61 key synth or stage piano is a good thing. With some of the patches, you wouldn't want to go lower than that low C. The fidelity and definition of the sample gets real shaky way down low.

 

[Sam Evans]

They are not the norm though, and usually they are composed with that specifically in mind. Otherwise, it's a failure of the keyboardist to recognize that they do not have to voice every chord with the root in it, nor does it have to be in the same octave if they do (i.e. recognize when to leave the root out or invert the chord!)

I'm going to guess you're a jazzer. From that perspective, quite correct.

But lots and lots and lots of rock songs involve keys doubling the bass and/or playing in the bass range. I don't know how many that has to be to count as the "norm" but LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS. And they manage to handle it just fine.

I don't deny anyone's experience with heavy handed keyboardists, but it's equally frustrating for keyboardists to listen to bassists complain every time we play below middle C ...

 

[JazznFunk]

Coming from the jazz side of things most commonly, the issue can get really bad if a keyboardist is constantly hammering root voicings in your range. It leaves very little room for much else, and sometimes not even just basic walking. I don't personally expect every pianist to be Bill Evans, but some measure of restraint is appreciated when it comes to how the low end is shared. Beyond that - and beyond jazz as my main litmus test - I find that a lot of keyboardists are used to playing solo and filling in all chordal information all the times, and it takes them a bit to sit back and remember that hey.... there's a bass player here! Everyone has to think like an arranger, and sometimes it's about what is best left out. The worst is when the keys are so loud and so thick right in your range that it's hard to hear yourself. Sometimes it's the keyboard that needs the HPF, not the bass.

 

[Sam Evans]

Coming from the jazz side of things most commonly, the issue can get really bad if a keyboardist is constantly hammering root voicings in your range. It leaves very little room for much else, and sometimes not even just basic walking. I don't personally expect every pianist to be Bill Evans, but some measure of restraint is appreciated when it comes to how the low end is shared. Beyond that - and beyond jazz as my main litmus test - I find that a lot of keyboardists are used to playing solo and filling in all chordal information all the times, and it takes them a bit to sit back and remember that hey.... there's a bass player here! Everyone has to think like an arranger, and sometimes it's about what is best left out. The worst is when the keys are so loud and so thick right in your range that it's hard to hear yourself. Sometimes it's the keyboard that needs the HPF, not the bass.

We just cross posted. I totally hear you on the jazz side of things, quite right.

 

[JazznFunk]

I'm going to guess you're a jazzer. From that perspective, quite correct.

But lots and lots and lots of rock songs involve keys doubling the bass and/or playing in the bass range. I don't know how many that has to be to count as the "norm" but LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS. And they manage to handle it just fine.

I don't deny anyone's experience with heavy handed keyboardists, but it's equally frustrating for keyboardists to listen to bassists complain every time we play below middle C ...

We're already circling around ourselves on this. I'm not 'just a jazzer' and have played in a lot of different contexts and genres - few of which demanded that I double a keyboard/piano line for the majority of a song. Maybe the genres where this is 'common' for one player aren't as common for me. I dig and accept that.

I'd have to struggle to think of 5 or 10 right off the bat where this is the case, all the way through the song. That leads me to believe that there are fewer in popular parlance than one may be led to believe right off the bat. I welcome a list of examples just for the sake of discussion.

I think the 'root' (pun intended) of the issue as it applies to the OP is that the keyboardist is not playing the same things he is, and perhaps those notes/arrangements need to be fleshed out if this is a key part of the band's sound. If it's not, and the keyboardist is simply overstepping their role in the arrangements, then they need to default to the bassist and find a way to streamline their parts. The band will sound a lot cleaner without territorial pissings in the low end.

 

[bigdaddybass12]

that is a tough one. I was in a band & the keys player unexpectedly quit. So I had to start playing keys. . I would basically play 1 handed or left hand did not pass 1 octave pass middle c to not compete with bass player. Sounds like you are not so lucky. He may never change, musicians are strange people,,,,,

 

[klokker]

Everybody has different experiences and levels of playing. In my world, I've had some keyboard players who don't seem to know how to play at all, if they aren't playing octaves with their left hand all the time. Then eq'd with huge low end.

It's ridiculous.

 

[Fuzzbass]

I'm right with the OP because lately I've frequently been gigging with THAT KIND of keyboardist -- a few of them, actually: those accustomed to doing the solo thing, and automatically playing left hand bass.

There are hundreds of songs where the keys double the bass.

Yeah. Doubling can be effective. Sadly, THAT KIND of keyboard player is just wingin' it, making little if any attempt to double anything.

I only want doubling to happen when the song calls for it. "Crossfire" by SRV -- sure, that's piano doubling bass, in the beginning at least. But generally I hate it even if a keyboardist does correctly double the bass line when doubling isn't in the song. That essentially freezes what I'm doing -- meaning, there's a good chance it'll sound like crap if I decide to take liberties with the recorded bass line. Sure, I mostly gig with cover bands, but I prefer those that aren't human jukeboxes. I should probably clarify that these "liberties" aren't gratuitous -- they're tastefully done by experienced players.

 

[funkinbottom]

I'm a keyboardist too ... *sniff*

Be strong man, it will be OK. Yeah, but playing bass and keys, I would imagine you do a good job of staying out of that real low range.

 

[Sam Evans]

I'd have to struggle to think of 5 or 10 right off the bat where this is the case, all the way through the song. That leads me to believe that there are fewer in popular parlance than one may be led to believe right off the bat. I welcome a list of examples just for the sake of discussion.

Apologies, but I'm bowing out here. I'm familiar with this internet argument strategy, and I'm not willing to take the bait.

If I'm mistaken and you're genuinely interested in examples, then I'd say listen to any band that features piano / keys prominently and listen for yourself, paying attention to what the keys are doing and not just focusing on the bass lines, perhaps even Google the sheet music. Some that come to mind include:

• pop artists such as Billy Joel, Elton John, Ben Folds, Bruce Hornsby, John Legend, Taylor Swift
• good ol' prog bands such as Yes, ELP, Genesis
• bands that have backing keys that aren't just one-handed synth players such as Journey
• blues pianists who play with bassists such as Ben Levin

 

[Sam Evans]

Yeah. Doubling can be effective. Sadly, THAT KIND of keyboard player is just wingin' it, making little if any attempt to double anything.

I only want doubling to happen when the song calls for it. "

Agreed!

 

[psyched]

I have the same situation, timely thread. I'd been considering changing the EQ curve of the keys on the FOH board when nobody was looking, trying to avoid the frequency war. Ha, maybe I'll just talk to the keys player about it with the framing of "how do we sound better" instead of finger pointing...

 

[ThudThudThud]

They are not the norm though, and usually they are composed with that specifically in mind. Otherwise, it's a failure of the keyboardist to recognize that they do not have to voice every chord with the root in it, nor does it have to be in the same octave if they do (i.e. recognize when to leave the root out or invert the chord!)

He might have something here, though. When the keyboard player is playing his solo lines, double them - Teen Town stylee. He'll get the massage, and you'll get all the kudos because you're out front, and he's not! Headband, flares, and shirtless isn't necessary.

 

[JazznFunk]

He might have something here, though. When the keyboard player is playing his solo lines, double them - Teen Town stylee. He'll get the massage, and you'll get all the kudos because you're out front, and he's not! Headband, flares, and shirtless isn't necessary.

Thing is, Jaco hated when Joe started doubling his lines like that, or so some stories go. It was an ego thing for Joe, and defeated the purpose of how Jaco wrote the tune in the first place as a bass melody. But that's a whole other thing than this topic.

 

[JazznFunk]

Apologies, but I'm bowing out here. I'm familiar with this internet argument strategy, and I'm not willing to take the bait.

If I'm mistaken and you're genuinely interested in examples, then I'd say listen to any band that features piano / keys prominently and listen for yourself, paying attention to what the keys are doing and not just focusing on the bass lines, perhaps even Google the sheet music. Some that come to mind include:

• pop artists such as Billy Joel, Elton John, Ben Folds, Bruce Hornsby, John Legend, Taylor Swift
• good ol' prog bands such as Yes, ELP, Genesis
• bands that have backing keys that aren't just one-handed synth players such as Journey
• blues pianists who play with bassists such as Ben Levin

There is no argument strategy. I asked for examples to further the discussion. There is no argument.

Based on the broad examples you gave, Billy Joel and Elton John's compositions are examples of tunes where the keys define the song heavily, and the bass has to find a way to complement - either by doubling or very selectively fitting in and leaving space. Which era of Bruce Hornsby? Most of what I'm familiar with in terms of his work leaves room for the bass to do its own thing. Same for Taylor Swift, although I admit that most of her work with which I'm most familiar is her 'pre-pop' era, in a more country vein where her bassist, Amos Heller, did some really great supportive playing that wasn't tied to any keyboard parts.

Prog bands often have through composed sections where the bass/keys double parts, but not all the way through. I think of a lot of Rush tunes where they were used as a composition device, but not exclusively through each song.

I can think of a LOT of Journey tunes where the keys are nowhere near the bass, and the bass line itself is a very well done, standalone part that isn't reliant on the keys to double it.

Blues bass and blues piano is often by design supposed to be doubled (boogie-woogie type lines and shuffles).

All great examples - and most are examples where the doubling is arranged and well thought out in advance.

 

[JazznFunk]

I only want doubling to happen when the song calls for it. "Crossfire" by SRV -- sure, that's piano doubling bass, in the beginning at least. But generally I hate it even if a keyboardist does correctly double the bass line when doubling isn't in the song. That essentially freezes what I'm doing -- meaning, there's a good chance it'll sound like crap if I decide to take liberties with the recorded bass line.

Yeah man. This is it. Don't try to double me if you don't know exactly what I'm going to play. Crossfire is a GREAT example of a tune where that doubling just kicks butt. On tunes where that kind of thing isn't supposed to happen, keyboardists need to let the bass player be the bass player and leave room with either voicings, or EQ changes.