Keyboard players with heavy left hands

[pepj]

Not sure this will end well.
1st off, he doesn’t realise its a problem, because he repeats it.
And even when you give him a hint, he lapses again.
I think someone needs words and a final position, which is if I have to drop out again, I'll drop out for good.

I find this musically immature as even good gtr players will roll off bass from their amp for the benefit of the band mix.
That is subtle compared to this and he doesnt acknowledge the clash of lines either...????

 

[Tosh]

".....keyboard players with a restless left hand syndrome should learn to split the keyboard and put a nice midrange pad to the left."

Amen! 40 years ago I was moving 4 keyboards around; today it's 1 that I can split into 16 zones (but rarely more than 4). I have plenty to keep my left hand busy....

 

[Not Insane]

When I started playing keyboards in a band, we had no bass player - I had to learn to be split-brained like Zaphod Beeblebrox.

Later I formed an original band, with half of our tunes written by me, and half by the guitar player. We had a good bass player, and the two us us worked out how to share the bottom end. Everyone was happy.

Meanwhile, I started to learn to play the bass.

Now I'm in a jazz band, playing piano (mostly), and a jam band. What I've learned about the "separation of power" has been invaluable! I'm a better keyboard player for it.

3 things I've figured out:

1) choose your voice wisely. If a Harpsichord and a Bass play in the same register, it's usually fine. If it's a B3, then just don't go too far below middle A (440hz).

2) Leave your 88 key studio piano at home. A 61 key synth is less weight to haul around.

3) Most synths have a lot of cool little controllers at your left hand. Use them!

Respect the Bottom End! I think all keyboard players should take the time to learn bass (and it doesn't hurt for bass players to learn a little bit about keyboards)

I'm always amazed at how Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford (Genesis) worked out the deep stuff. Sometimes you NEED the keys down there, but they obviously worked it out brilliantly. (firth of fifth comes to mind)

 

[Not Insane]

I find this musically immature as even good gtr players will roll off bass from their amp for the benefit of the band mix.

I joined a three piece band (with electronic drums) a few months ago and that is exactly what happened in it. The guitar player had way too much bass in his amp, and when I called it out, he dialed it out to perfection. We each get our own sonic space and it's great.

 

[LordRyan]

It depends on how the song is arranged and if the song is keyboard heavy. Being a bass player and keyboard player I am very aware of when I'm playing in bass territory. Some songs use the low notes of the piano and that's the way it is. I had a bass player complain because I played the low piano notes in "Don't Stop Believin'" or in Elton John songs. Those piano parts don't work if you leave out the left hand. Some songs have synth bass doubling bass guitar and i have had complaints about that. I don't randomly play low keyboard notes out of habit without knowing what's going on in the arrangement. As a bass player I have played with keyboard players that have no clue about what they are doing with the left hand. You just have to deal with it or get out.

 

[booch29]

Kill them all!!! (Didn't read the post, only the headline)

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Thanks for all of the replies. I didn’t know this would blow up like it did.
I’m the newest member of the band so I’m trying to be careful how I address this.
If he would play his left hand one octave higher there would never be an issue.
There is no consistency to his playing in my register on any tune. Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn’t. Then when he incorporates the sustain pedal, my bass runs virtually disappear in the mud.
I guess my best bet is to let him know that I’m going to lay out when he’s playing in my register so it doesn’t get muddy and make us both sound bad.
It that happens enough the drummer and guitar player will get involved and perhaps they’ll get it straightened out. If not and it continues, I’ll be leaving.

I’ve been thinking about your dilemma the last couple of days and was thinking that if you want to take a bad situation and make it a learning one, a s well as a fun challenge maybe try this approach.

Go for a Taoist philosophy, path of least resistance. When the keys aren’t clashing in your range play what you normally would play holding down the bottom. If the keys are dominating the normal hold down the bottom range move up the neck and contribute to the ensemble by playing more pad like parts, long wide spaced chords above the 12th fret. If chords don’t fit the mix when the keys are holding down the bottom try some counterpoint like a cello or French horn might do in an ensemble.

Might have some fun throwing in a distortion pedal and try to thicken up the rhythm guitar when the keys don’t give you space to play.

From your description it sounds like the key player and possibly the band is more or a jam vibe than an orchestrated ensemble. Being that you are the new person to the band you probably won’t be able to change the key players bad habits unless it affects the other members of the band.

So at the end of the day the choice is yours to either go with the flow, or fight it until the band tightens ups its parts. Or maybe if your the key player is a reasonable person just talking them can resolve the issue.

Cheers.

 

[Parzival]

I have seen keyboard players that ruin otherwise good bands. They just play too much and are all over songs when in actuality the keys may be just a small part in the song. And they are almost always turned up too loud.

Not a fan.

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Here is one of my favorite live jam bands. They ensemble so well, never have to struggle to hear anybody playing because they all have a great musical relationship with each other.

 

[Bass Motifs]

Try recording one of your performances?

Sounds like your keyboardist doesn't change their style between solo.playing and bnd playing, where they're just playing "one part" not "all the parts". Must sound a mess.

Can't entirely blame them, a lot of keyboard playing in bands must be tedious sound effects stuff, filling out chords, playing a few background parts. Hard to get "into" it without slamming octaves in the left hand. I say that as a keyboard player myself.

 

[klattman]

Usually comes down to inexperience in listening and arranging.
Many solo players have no practice in how to listen or arrange with others.

 

[JazznFunk]

I have seen keyboard players that ruin otherwise good bands. They just play too much and are all over songs when in actuality the keys may be just a small part in the song. And they are almost always turned up too loud.

Not a fan.

One of my contemporary favorites on keys/organ/synths who never overplays and is always, always tasteful, is Derry deBorja with Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit. Dude is a master.

 

[Not Insane]

So, I was visiting a new church today (didn't want to listen to the guest speaker at my church and this is our neighbor's small church) and the bass was horrendously loud. I noticed the bass player was really young and basically just played roots. But then I realized the problem. Not only was the bass way too loud, but we were listening to him AND the keyboardist. And whenever he played a fret high or low, they dissonance was awful because they were a half step off from each other, at very loud sound levels.

The preaching was pretty good, though.

 

[Pep]

I’ve been thinking about your dilemma the last couple of days and was thinking that if you want to take a bad situation and make it a learning one, a s well as a fun challenge maybe try this approach.

Go for a Taoist philosophy, path of least resistance. When the keys aren’t clashing in your range play what you normally would play holding down the bottom. If the keys are dominating the normal hold down the bottom range move up the neck and contribute to the ensemble by playing more pad like parts, long wide spaced chords above the 12th fret. If chords don’t fit the mix when the keys are holding down the bottom try some counterpoint like a cello or French horn might do in an ensemble.

Might have some fun throwing in a distortion pedal and try to thicken up the rhythm guitar when the keys don’t give you space to play.

From your description it sounds like the key player and possibly the band is more or a jam vibe than an orchestrated ensemble. Being that you are the new person to the band you probably won’t be able to change the key players bad habits unless it affects the other members of the band.

So at the end of the day the choice is yours to either go with the flow, or fight it until the band tightens ups its parts. Or maybe if your the key player is a reasonable person just talking them can resolve the issue.

Cheers.

Thanks for the suggestion and it would work if he was consistent on when he did it, but he's not.

 

[Pep]

I'm always amazed at how Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford (Genesis) worked out the deep stuff. Sometimes you NEED the keys down there, but they obviously worked it out brilliantly. (firth of fifth comes to mind)

Several of you mentioned well-known groups and if we were doing original tunes it would be easy to address, but were doing covers and the group seldom rehearses. Also at this particular venue, everything comes from the stage except the vocals and sax. It's a very small stage and we're on top of each other.
I guess I could always bring my Bergantino Forte HP2 (1200 watts) and stack two Greenboy fEARless F112s.

 

[Not Insane]

Several of you mentioned well-known groups and if we were doing original tunes it would be easy to address, but were doing covers and the group seldom rehearses. Also at this particular venue, everything comes from the stage except the vocals and sax. It's a very small stage and we're on top of each other.
I guess I could always bring my Bergantino Forte HP2 (1200 watts) and stack two Greenboy fEARless F112s.

If your only chance to work it out is at gigs, looks like there are enough strikes against you continuing on with these guys to justify you moving on.

My band practices once a week, but we're all retired and have the time. I like to say that some guys have poker night, while we have practice nights. But the thing is that even though we are all experienced, like a basketball team we need to learn each other's moves. And that means we need rehearsal. And it's paying off.

A big problem we had and I think a lot of bands with experienced members may have is that guys have been playing a song "wrong" for so long, it's hard to unlearn what you are used to. This is especially bad with our other lead singer who plays rhythm guitar. For all intents and purposes his background is in solo work. Kinda like a busker, but on stage. He completely stylized vocals both in "rhythm" and notes. i.e. he would sometimes drop or climb into what would be the harmony vocal parts. So when I try to sing harmony with him, the timing of his notes is way off and often he leaves the melody to join me on harmony.

It's taken a long time but most of it is fixed, though there are some parts where I've just given up and I go into the melody for a couple of notes.

He also has no "harmony sensibility" but that is changing too. Because I played 3rd trombone and bass trombone in high school and college stage bands, I just naturally "hear" the harmony, even to songs I've never heard before. I assumed everybody did that but nope. I came across it several years ago in my "amish family" band, where it took months before the teenage kids in the band could sing decent harmonies, but they really nailed it. We did a lot of Doo-wap very well. But I'm having the same challenge with this guy. Again, as we rehearse, it gets noticeably better.

If you've had the stamina to read to this point, let me summarize: If you guys are having these problems, you may not need to rehearse to learn the songs, but rather, like a basketball practice, you need to rehearse to learn to play like a team.

And at the end of the day, that is what a band is. It is a team.

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Thanks for the suggestion and it would work if he was consistent on when he did it, but he's not.

So I guess the question now is does the gig pay enough to deal with it? For as zen as I try to be I don’t think I’d have the patience to do it more than a couple of times.

 

[Pep]

Well guys, here's what's happening. We had 3 gigs last week. On the first night, every time he dropped down in my register I looked his way and stopped playing. He immediately went up an octave with his left hand. The second night it was less frequent. On Saturday night I didn't need to top playing. He did it a couple of times but immediately moved back up realizing he was in my space. It's starting to work out.
The previous bass player really didn't play with any drive and was barely audible. He was with them for 3 years so perhaps the keyboardist felt he had to strengthen the low end. He doesn't need to do that with me.

I really appreciate all of the interaction and suggestions. What a great bunch of guys you are! Thank you.

 

[Tosh]

So - you CAN teach a keyboard player new tricks?

go figure ;-}

PS - a band I play keys in has decided to learn "Kid Charlemagne". We had our first swing at it last week. I have a deep clav patch assigned to my left hand. It's lower, and louder, than the bass guitar part. Our bass player, (also band leader), asked me to turn it up a notch.

Everyone thought it sounded great (though I know I can do better). Bass and Keys, when mixed correctly, can be a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts.

 

[Pep]

So - you CAN teach a keyboard player new tricks?

go figure ;-}

PS - a band I play keys in has decided to learn "Kid Charlemagne". We had our first swing at it last week. I have a deep clav patch assigned to my left hand. It's lower, and louder, than the bass guitar part. Our bass player, (also band leader), asked me to turn it up a notch.

Everyone thought it sounded great (though I know I can do better). Bass and Keys, when mixed correctly, can be a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts.

It sounds like you know where, when, what to play and how to work with a bass player. That’s not the case here yet, but we’re getting there.