Keyboard players with heavy left hands

[Pep]

I'm sure we've all had to deal with this at one time or another. Two of the bands I work with have keyboard players who love to "live in my operating area".
I joined one of these bands about 7 months ago, came out to hear them before joining and listened to their mix and the bass player.
Let me clarify in this particular instance we are a house band every Thursday. There are PA speakers aiming towards the crowd but they're for vocals and sax. Everything else comes from the stage.
You could barely hear the bass.
They asked me to sit-in for a couple of numbers, which I did and at that point I understood the situation. The bass was really low on stage and even I had difficulty hearing it standing in front of the bass cab.
I brought it up a bit and it brought some life to the band and everyone seemed more excited. Things were punching for a bit until the keyboard player dropped he left hand down an octave and started clashing with my notes.
I joined the group and this has been a bit of an ongoing problem. My remedy has been to just drop out and quit playing when he does it. Then some of the members look my way and I just nod towards the keyboard player so they know the problem. Every time this happens he gets the hint and moves his left hand back up but it's starting to
I stand next to him and last night he asked me to turn down because he wasn't able to hear what he was playing so I did. Just to be hones, he was blasting away and I could hear nothing but him. Since we were apparently too loud for each other I suggested next week we stand in front of each others cabs. He looked bewildered.
Next week it's going to be my bass cab on a stand so I can hear my self even if I'm not loud enough out front. If that doesn't work it may be the end of the road for me and that band.

I have a similar problem with the other band and I deal with it in much the same way.

In both of these instances neither keyboard player plays the exact same notes that I'm playing. It's usually an embellishment of the bass line that's supposed to be there and sometimes a full chord on the left hand which effectively kills what I'm doing. Ad the sustain pedal to that and you have a complete mess.

I'm open to suggestions on how to effectively deal with this situation. Please help!!!

 

[buldog5151bass]

Unless the keyboardist is willing to work with you, not much you can do but sit out til he gets the point. Perhaps a sit down with BL.

 

[DonaldR]

Can you HPF the keyboard player at 200Hz or higher?

 

[Killing Floor]

I think dropping out and waiting for the keys to recognize the issue is a good temporary action. So is playing bass over his notes instead of playing the bass line.

But those actions can mess up the song how about video a gig and send clips to the keys and ask them for recommendations?

 

[bdplaid]

This is why slap bass was invented.

 

[Sam Evans]

As a bassists and keyboardist, it's fascinating to me to read the "bass vs. keys" threads on sites devoted to one or the other.

In this case, I think you're in the right. The keys player doesn't seem to know how to play with a bassist, both in terms of the arrangments and the mix (esp. EQ).

As always, I advise trying to talk with him first. Then try talking with the BL. Then quit. Then fire the drummer ...

 

[funkinbottom]

Yeah, that's a lot of keyboardist. They think they're the center of all things. They don't care how $#!tty conflicting notes sound in the low registrar and expect you work around them. Doesn't fly with me. I always tell them, and if not willing to compromise, I'm gone.

 

[Sam Evans]

Yeah, that's a lot of keyboardist. They think they're the center of all things. They don't care how $#!tty conflicting notes sound in the low registrar and expect you work around them.

I'm a keyboardist too ... *sniff*

 

[Tosh]

When I started playing keyboards in a band, we had no bass player - I had to learn to be split-brained like Zaphod Beeblebrox.

Later I formed an original band, with half of our tunes written by me, and half by the guitar player. We had a good bass player, and the two us us worked out how to share the bottom end. Everyone was happy.

Meanwhile, I started to learn to play the bass.

Now I'm in a jazz band, playing piano (mostly), and a jam band. What I've learned about the "separation of power" has been invaluable! I'm a better keyboard player for it.

3 things I've figured out:

1) choose your voice wisely. If a Harpsichord and a Bass play in the same register, it's usually fine. If it's a B3, then just don't go too far below middle A (440hz).

2) Leave your 88 key studio piano at home. A 61 key synth is less weight to haul around.

3) Most synths have a lot of cool little controllers at your left hand. Use them!

Respect the Bottom End! I think all keyboard players should take the time to learn bass (and it doesn't hurt for bass players to learn a little bit about keyboards)

 

[Lobster11]

Next week it's going to be my bass cab on a stand so I can hear my self even if I'm not loud enough out front.

If you can get the keyboard player to do the same you might have a solution here.

 

[Slevage]

Start playing chords above the 12th fret.
Just kidding- gotta talk to the band leader first.

 

[bobalu]

This is why slap bass was invented.

Exactly. He should slap the keyboard player in the head.

 

[mikeynets]

I had a guitar player friend who'd call bass players just half an instrument or "left hand." That was 20 something years ago and while I still chuckle at it, it still kinda stings a little! Best kind of humor I guess. But I have a question in here: I haven't played with keyboardists much so I usually have the low end to myself. Is it just situational, or is there a rule of thumb about who gets which portion of the low end?

 

[Sam Evans]

I had a guitar player friend who'd call bass players just half an instrument or "left hand." That was 20 something years ago and while I still chuckle at it, it still kinda stings a little! Best kind of humor I guess. But I have a question in here: I haven't played with keyboardists much so I usually have the low end to myself. Is it just situational, or is there a rule of thumb about who gets which portion of the low end?

Situational. It's not really about the range; it's about the arrangement, and how things are mixed.

What you DON'T want to do as a bass player is try to tell the keys player that they aren't allowed to play below, say, middle C because that's "your range" -- anymore than we'd let guitarists tell us not to play above the open D string ...

 

[CryingBass]

I have seen Wakeman and Squire play nice with each other many times. Seems like they worked things out.

 

[Sam Evans]

I have seen Wakeman and Squire play nice with each other many times. Seems like they worked things out.

Then there's that Greg Lake and Keith Emerson group, whatever their name was ...

 

[klokker]

I'm lucky because our keyboard player plays through a pretty weak amp without tons of low end. I've had luck just asking him to turn the bass down on his eq. It's the same thing with our guitar player. They just did it, and that was that. Plus I can blow him out with my amp/cab if I want.

But it's a real problem. I play keys as well, but there's really no excuse for all that huge low end on the keys if you have a bass player. Even on it's own it usually sounds terrible anyway.

Even us bass players HPF a lot to clean things up. Keys shouldn't be any different.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm sure we've all had to deal with this at one time or another. Two of the bands I work with have keyboard players who love to "live in my operating area".
I joined one of these bands about 7 months ago, came out to hear them before joining and listened to their mix and the bass player.
Let me clarify in this particular instance we are a house band every Thursday. There are PA speakers aiming towards the crowd but they're for vocals and sax. Everything else comes from the stage.
You could barely hear the bass.
They asked me to sit-in for a couple of numbers, which I did and at that point I understood the situation. The bass was really low on stage and even I had difficulty hearing it standing in front of the bass cab.
I brought it up a bit and it brought some life to the band and everyone seemed more excited. Things were punching for a bit until the keyboard player dropped he left hand down an octave and started clashing with my notes.
I joined the group and this has been a bit of an ongoing problem. My remedy has been to just drop out and quit playing when he does it. Then some of the members look my way and I just nod towards the keyboard player so they know the problem. Every time this happens he gets the hint and moves his left hand back up but it's starting to
I stand next to him and last night he asked me to turn down because he wasn't able to hear what he was playing so I did. Just to be hones, he was blasting away and I could hear nothing but him. Since we were apparently too loud for each other I suggested next week we stand in front of each others cabs. He looked bewildered.
Next week it's going to be my bass cab on a stand so I can hear my self even if I'm not loud enough out front. If that doesn't work it may be the end of the road for me and that band.

I have a similar problem with the other band and I deal with it in much the same way.

In both of these instances neither keyboard player plays the exact same notes that I'm playing. It's usually an embellishment of the bass line that's supposed to be there and sometimes a full chord on the left hand which effectively kills what I'm doing. Ad the sustain pedal to that and you have a complete mess.

I'm open to suggestions on how to effectively deal with this situation. Please help!!!

This is a very valid and common problem. I think it's important to keep in mind that much of what we do while playing tends to be automatic; this includes what the keyboard player does with his/her left hand. In order to stay out of your way, the keyboardist may need to constantly think about what he/she is playing, which is not ideal. So the problem stems from the keyboard player simply doing what they normally do, which is probably to play solo.

A really good keyboardist can vary how they play, although many still revert from time to time. Success most likely comes from a willingness to practice playing both ways. Unfortunately a lot of old dogs don't want to bother learning new tricks. They just want to continue doing what they have always done.

If the keyboardist cannot or will not adjust the way they play, then the first thing I would consider is how the stage is laid out. I have played in some bands where I preferred being next to the guitarist, and I have been in some bands where I have preferred being next to the keyboardist.

If modifying the layout is not possible or does not provide sufficient relief, then changing the way you aim your amp is the next thing I would suggest. I actually almost always elevate my cab and tilt it back to aim at my ears. Perhaps a better solution may involve a well-executed IEM system. If you have a stereo mix, you could turn down the keyboard player's left hand.

Ultimately if you cannot achieve the level of relief you want, then consider finding another pasture to graze. A common recommendation is to consider the following three factors: 1. musical enjoyment, 2. quality of the hang, 3. money. Each of these factors is a form of compensation (motivation)...and there are other factors you should consider.

Total compensation must be sufficient to make continuing with a band worth your while. I.E. if you are not sufficiently enjoying the playing experience or hang, then it's necessary to be paid really well. If you are not getting something you want or need from the experience, consider cutting your losses and trying to find a band that is a better fit...or maybe it's time to take up a new hobby.


Good Luck!

 

[Kansas]

Only one person should play bass... stay in your lane, or I'm out of here.

 

[Sam Evans]

Only one person should play bass... stay in your lane, or I'm out of here.

There are hundreds of songs where the keys double the bass.