Lady 5Jane - Headless, Fretless 5 String Prototype (With Piano Pins)

[Duplo42]

First of all, great to see the progress, look really promising and i'm looking forward to completition!

Hoke, so now, the piezos. I did a quick test as promised, but not really lol. The thing is, my audio interface (Komplete 6) wasn't working for some reason so I visited a friend with Zoom H4n. And of course...he had no double-sided tape and of course I haven't brought any :/

So my sound test ended up being extremely nonscientific, but just for the fun factor, I did a bit recording anyway. Only open string (read below). I'll still post the recordings with some playing and do the test properly next time around.

The setup (see all pics below please) :
- Piezo thing I put together myself (bought 35mm piezo transducer, 4 meters of hi-fi quality cable, Neutrik stereo 1/4'', and some clumsy soldering and no preamp or buffer)
- Precision fretless bass copy from 1983, plywood basswood body, maple neck, rosewood FB)
- Zoom H4N

Piezo was held with fingers to various parts of bass and guitar also. I did no investigation of the best placement, just 5 randomish places.
I usually have double-sided carpet tape on bottom side of piezo and a wooden ring above that is being held down by duct tape (as in, mimicking the pressure of hand). But since I had none, silly me, I was using fingers. So all I could play was open strings. Hence nonscientific test ahead. Still it should give you some info, if nothing else, just for fun.

Piezo was plugged straight into Zoom H4n, no auto rec level, no compressor or limiter, 96khz 24bit wav, rec level was set to 70% cause the piezo is just too loud on bass frequencies and recording levels go into red. There was zero post-production, just copy&paste from SD card to comp and upload to soundcloud.

There is some noise from fingers, there is some ground hum, so be warned, don't hate me. If you have headphones, use them.
Again, no premeditated placements - i could use headphones and fiddle with placements and best sounds, but had no time...so don't judge this test. Thanks

Soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/grinderlab (please skip the last track "Numera Uno" - it was a joke tune played with computer keyboard ;D)

Thumbnails of setup:
0 zoom h4n, piezo plugged in, mono recording

1 piezo bass side

2 piezo treble side

3 piezo middle of the neck

4 piezo headstock front

5 piezo headstock back

+ two recording done on 6 string electric guitar with my friend holding the piezo down (then he had to leave, so i was forced to play only open strings lol) - first recording of guitar is like first two on bass - bass side, then treble side

Conclusion of this not-really-test : this piezo is very loud, has very bassy sound even without preamp/buffer. I could go and find best position for best sound, but I'll do that next time.
With some placements (headstock front, for example), D string sounds very quiet even thou I applied same pluck pressure). Piezo on bass-side was exactly the opposite - D string was extremely bassy. In the middle of the neck, there was so much bass on E string, it went into red no matter how soft I played.

When I'm using doublesided tape, I plug into my bass amp and can very easily play in a band with no feedback. Sound is kinda...specific...but in a band context, it actually sounds really cool, kinda like weird upright bass, compliments acoustic guitar really well.

Hope this doesn't steal you thread too much As said before about piezos, some can sound really bad but some are just suprisigly good. Using preamp would be the thing ofcourse, but with right piezo, good placement and proper pressure, it sounds bloody great nonetheless.

Looking forward to hear your bass soon

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Is "Lady 5Jane" a Neuromancer reference?

It is. I came close to naming the bass The Aleph, but Lady 5Jane won out. Love your handle!

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Hope this doesn't steal you thread too much

Not at all! I am grateful for the information, and appreciate you taking the time to post results. Thanks so much!

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I removed the clamps and did a quick weigh in - exactly 11lbs. I am REALLY unhappy with several of the fret lines. I am having to clean out and start over almost from with a few of them. I am sure it's my technique rather than the material based on other's reported success. Meh. The practice is good for me. I have a lot of small cleanup jobs all over the body as well.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

CA glue and baking soda lesson learned. I started cleaning up the fret lines and found a TON of slots where the CA glue had not wicked all the way into the slot. To fix this I cleaned out the line with hobby knives and then filled the slot with CA glue prior to adding the baking soda. The difference in both curing time and results were night and day. I won't get this finished tonight, but I feel better about the lines in general.

 

[Hopkins]

CA glue and baking soda lesson learned. I started cleaning up the fret lines and found a TON of slots where the CA glue had not wicked all the way into the slot. To fix this I cleaned out the line with hobby knives and then filled the slot with CA glue prior to adding the baking soda. The difference in both curing time and results were night and day. I won't get this finished tonight, but I feel better about the lines in general.

I use the CA and and baking soda trick on side dots, and whenever else I need a white dot. It dries pretty much instantly if you let the CA wick into the dry soda.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I use the CA and and baking soda trick on side dots, and whenever else I need a white dot. It dries pretty much instantly if you let the CA wick into the dry soda.

I think that the viscosity of the CA glue may be the problem with the wicking. I am using Stewmac's medium in a white color. I will get a workflow figured out eventually! I need to experiment a bit more....obviously.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

No pix this morning, but a quick update is due. I pulled out the flats that @JustForSport sent me (Thanks again!) and strung it up to see how things look, and spent some time last night carving on the transition area between the zero fret and the end of the neck to create a slope for the strings to rest on to eliminate a really sharp break angle with the heavier gauge strings. I may have to slot the slope to keep the strings landing on the right spots on the zero fret, but want to wait until I get the piano tuners installed to see how things line up. I expect that the slots will be needed to eliminate string movement at the zero fret during play.

This bass feels really solid. It's a bit heavy, but not egregiously so. I think it would really benefit from a belly cut as the upper horn digs in a bit uncomfortably.

 

[Hopkins]

I think that the viscosity of the CA glue may be the problem with the wicking. I am using Stewmac's medium in a white color. I will get a workflow figured out eventually! I need to experiment a bit more....obviously.

Ahh, its the medium glue that is the problem. I use Loctite brand, thin CA glue for this, just fill in the line, or hole with baking soda, and add a drop or two of CA. It will wick all the way through the soda, and be dry within seconds. The white colored glue isn't necessary or even an advantage in this situation, as the color comes from the soda

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Thanks Hopkins! I will be cleaning up my mess over the next few nights and your insights are helpful.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

@Duplo42 - By the way - the results you posted were very interesting! I am going to have to build a piezo test platform at some point.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I used @Hopkins method on a fret line and had the same problem using thin Loctite, so I went back to the other method of filling the slot with white CA and then pressing the baking soda in. That method worked very well, and I got to practice getting a nice clean white line to use on fingerboards that I plan on dying darker colors.

A bit of filling was done using oak dust and titebond. I have a bit more carving to do here and there, and perhaps a bit more filling. I am very much looking forward to the piano pins arriving in the mail so that I can get the last bit of drilling done and see how she sings.

The below pic is pretty bad quality, but the girls wanted to take a photo together.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I am considering expoxying the fingerboard after I have the colors the way I want them.... Should I do that before or after I install the zero fret?

 

[Hopkins]

I am considering expoxying the fingerboard after I have the colors the way I want them.... Should I do that before or after I install the zero fret?

Im actually stumped on this one. I haven't ever really considered a fretless with a zero fret.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I may just tape off the fret if I decide to go that route. How about another fingerboard filling question....has anyone used Crystalac on a fretless fingerboard?

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I am REALLY unhappy about the way the fret lines came out. This is good news in that I know a technique to avoid for lines in future builds. I am going to live with it for this build - she's a prototype after all, and she has done a wonderful job as a learning tool. A zero fret was installed without incident, and she got a slathering of black dye. The body will be sanded back to get a (hopefully) nice wire brushed look, and once the pins come in the mail I will get them installed and make a floating bridge out of oak so I can get a feel for how she plays.

 

[Splods]

Shame about the fretlines, do you have time and resources to redo it?

 

[BioWeapon]

If I were you, I would redo the fretlines with some maple veneer instead of filling with CA or another substance.

 

[El Spearo]

If I were you, I would redo the fretlines with some maple veneer instead of filling with CA or another substance.

That's what I was thinking, or maybe that material you can get at hobby/model shops (styrene?)

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I have some white styrene strips, but for now I am just going to leave it be. I may revisit the lines later. Here's what she looks like after a bit of sanding and splash of Tru Oil....