Lady 5Jane - Headless, Fretless 5 String Prototype (With Piano Pins)

[Duplo42]

Very interesting
Btw, same thing happened to me with fretlines so i resaw the slots and used walnut veneer - it can be fixed at any time, so no biggie

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I don't want to get too bogged down on small things on this build. This prototype has been a huge success in exploring various things, and I have a whole list of modifications to my workflow that will produce much better instruments overall. I very much like the line layout with the combination of side lines and full lines, the elimination of the dots, the set neck, and the extended fingerboard. I think a version of this bass using black limba for body/neck, and a nice dark fingerboard would look gorgeous. With piano tuners....of course.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Holes for the piano pins were drilled out to create a 17.5mm string spacing, and on a line to be consistent with the angle of the heel of the neck. The drilled out piano pins have not yet arrived in the mail, but I was able to string up the D and G strings to see how things are working. A quickie floating bridge was cut out to keep the strings off the neck and adjust intonation. The action is fairly high, but she plays in tune and sounds deliciously woody unplugged.

 

[BioWeapon]

Looks so clean without a big honkin bridge... if this piano tuner concept works out, I'm gonna have to try it.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

OK - I couldn't resist the temptation and drilled out a pair of tuners so I could get the A and E strings up and running. I was a little worried that the material removal combined with the torque would leave me with a snapped pin, but it worked out fine. I am half tempted to ditch the low B and pick up another A string to do a non-standard stringing with a "reflected A", or perhaps pick up a C to make her consistent with a 6 string minus the B....

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Looks so clean without a big honkin bridge... if this piano tuner concept works out, I'm gonna have to try it.

I am pretty happy with the system. My initial pine prototype (Lady 5Jane is prototype number 2) has been my main player since I built it, and I have been super pleased with it. The main issues lie with it being a 1:1 ratio for tuning, which might be challenging for most player to get used to. Add to that the extra requirement of having to keep a tuning hammer nearby and most bass players will have opted out, and I really don't blame them. For me the novelty of the idea is appealing, and the fact that I am very used to tuning large harps that use a very similar system.

Now I just need to get the piezo's to sound good...that may be a chore in and of itself.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

OK - one last update and I am heading for some dream time. The fret line layout is taking some time to get used to, and it's proving to be a pain to find my way around. I had no idea how dependent I was on the dots until they were gone. I still like the paradigm and expect that I will get used to it quickly. I have quite a bit of work left to do before she's all the way done, but being able to play her is very nice, and she plays MUCH better than her predecessor.

 

[Duplo42]

Once I got a luthier to install maple fretless fingerboard with no lines or dots on my MM-copy bass. It took me couple of weeks, despite being fretless unlined player, to get use to. I observed myself and realized I am being scared of fretting wrong notes much more then with side-dots fingerboard, so one of the practice routines was to intentionally and consciously shake the fear off before and while playing (hence "fretless" . After couple of weeks, not looking at neck at all was normal and also the only way to do it. As soon as I started to peek onto neck, I was lost.
At the time I also started to study doublebass, but imho with upright position it's much easier to conquer the neck then with horizontal neck position (plus the shape of doublebass and the neck/body heel helps a lot).

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Quick update to note a few things. The piano pins are MUCH tighter in the oak than my previous experience in pine, which makes fine tuning a bit harder. The strings I put on are brand spanking new (thanks again @JustForSport!), so they need more tuning as they get broken in - this is a perfect situation for testing. As with my previous prototype I am very happy with the performance of the pins, and the more I use them the more I see these being a standard configuration in all basses I make for myself.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

So I was wrong. It's not the first time, and certainly won't be the last. The 7/64" holes fit the tapered ends of the low B just fine, so I have strung it up as a standard 5 string for the time being. I may pick up a C this weekend, but there is no pressing need. I will post an updated pic a bit later.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Here's a pic of her with strings.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

It's a shame, but the piezos sound terrible. The rod sounds better than the disc, but they are tinny and noisy even with a preamp. I thought about it a bit and started feeling around the bass. What I found was that the end of the neck nearest the headpiece showed the most vibration when a string was sounded. This is very consistent with the results that @Duplo42 received in his tests. I know that a piezo in the bridge will work, as evidenced by the many implementations in the wild, and I am thinking that the top of the neck is another potential "sweet spot".

 

[Hopkins]

It's a shame, but the piezos sound terrible. The rod sounds better than the disc, but they are tinny and noisy even with a preamp. I thought about it a bit and started feeling around the bass. What I found was that the end of the neck nearest the headpiece showed the most vibration when a string was sounded. This is very consistent with the results that @Duplo42 received in his tests. I know that a piezo in the bridge will work, as evidenced by the many implementations in the wild, and I am thinking that the top of the neck is another potential "sweet spot".

What kind of preamp are you using, is it designed as a piezo buffer? A piezo pickup without a buffer will always sound like you describe. Despite being weak and tinny, is the sound even across all the strings?

You might consider putting together a simply DIY buffer circuit and see how it sounds
http://www.scotthelmke.com/Mint-box-buffer.html

 

[JustForSport]

The piano tuner I spoke with suggested that an 'H' drill bit (for #2's) would be better for this usage, even in a maple pin block.

Some piezo sensors are for 'flexi' and some for compression applications. With bridge saddles, I've noticed that some are more sensitive than others, and seem to require more initial/ static pressure than others.

Also, there may be a designed difference in buffers/ preamps intended for guitar or for bass.

And I'm not sure how the 'bedding' mat'l affects the signal- some softer bedding may dampen the signal, not being 'true' or clean.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

What kind of preamp are you using, is it designed as a piezo buffer? A piezo pickup without a buffer will always sound like you describe. Despite being weak and tinny, is the sound even across all the strings?

You might consider putting together a simply DIY buffer circuit and see how it sounds
http://www.scotthelmke.com/Mint-box-buffer.html

I was using this, which came with the piezo bar I installed in the neck pocket. The sound is consistent across the strings, but what I am hearing is way more body noise (e.g. scraping my sleeves across the body, finger thumping on the ramp, etc.) than string tone. Funny you mention it, as my recent mouser order was to get all of the parts to build one of the Mint Box units. I have not taken the time to solder it together yet, but it's on my todo list.

The piano tuner I spoke with suggested that an 'H' drill bit (for #2's) would be better for this usage, even in a maple pin block.

The piano guy that gave me the tuners originally also gave me drill bits the right size for the 2/0 pins he gave me.

 

[Hopkins]

I was using this, which came with the piezo bar I installed in the neck pocket. The sound is consistent across the strings, but what I am hearing is way more body noise (e.g. scraping my sleeves across the body, finger thumping on the ramp, etc.) than string tone. Funny you mention it, as my recent mouser order was to get all of the parts to build one of the Mint Box units. I have not taken the time to solder it together yet, but it's on my todo list.



The piano guy that gave me the tuners originally also gave me drill bits the right size for the 2/0 pins he gave me.

The body noise problem is going to be a problem regardless. I don't know if there is a solution for that.

 

[JustForSport]

[QUOTE/]The piano guy that gave me the tuners originally also gave me drill bits the right size for the 2/0 pins he gave me.[/QUOTE]

The guy I spoke with uses a little smaller diameter drill because they don't drill out the string holes, so full strength is retained. He suggested the 'H' size bit to keep from turning the end off on pins with larger string holes. Well, we'll see over time.

Body noise from the piezo saddles in the Fishman PowerBridge (with Fishman buffer/EQ) is no problem... Tape-Wound strings don't work so well, tho unless a little more string pressure is exerted on the saddle.
Different sensitivity in the crystal makeup, or in the bedding?

 

[Duplo42]

Shame about piezos :/ Good info thou, so thanks for the sacrifice
It's funny how headstock vibrates so much - as you can here in my "test" (here's the link again: soundcloud and my post in this thread: no preamp, no buffer, straight to zoom h4n), the bass is huge there (if you have a good woofer speaker, it's earthshaking).

In my experience, best is to experiment with various sizes - 20mm radius for example is really good for focused all-around bass sound, but best is to solder two piezos in Y shape (two wires for each piezo and those two wires go to one output wire) - one 20mm for bass sound and one 35mm for treble sound, strategically placed on bass side of body and treble part of body. YMMV

It's also weird that so many of you get the tinny sound out of piezos - I experienced that only with the smallest ones placed poorly.

Also, to minimize body noise, I use 0.6mm veener (of whatever wood you prefer - I use alder and walnut, but maybe pine or spruce would be best), cut to size for piezo diameter (i use sharp scissors in very slow fashion), taped with very thin carpet double-side tape that I beforehand 'stick' to a woolen sweater - this way it picks the lint and it sticks less, making it easy to remove from piezo or body.
I stick one layer of veener to piezo, which I then press with fingers to the body until i find best place. It's important that you press only the outside rim of piezo, not the white circle!
If there is too much of a noise (or poor sound), I use another layer of veener. Once I get the best result (remember, even theoretically the same piezos from same batch can sound different sometimes), I remove the double-sided tape and glue both veeners together with wood glue, and i stick that to piezo with double-sided tape (with no lint on it for best adhesion).

I'm about to make a "pressing mechanism" for piezos. It's kinda hard to explain, but imagine a circle made of brass (or aluminum or wood) with a hollow inside (so it looks like a tiny cup) - the "walls" of this cup press against outer rim of piezo, leaving the white circle of piezo intact. The radius of such brass pressing circle is larger then radius of piezo, which allows for screw holes. When screwed to body (I know, not your thing if you don't want to make holes in instrument), it makes good pressure downward to piezo. Hope this explanation makes sense lol

I apologize for long writing, but your build seems to be of experimental nature, making this thread an experimentaL and sharing one ;P

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

@Duplo42 - Please share! Your feedback has been hugely helpful to me, and I am willing to bet that I am not the only one benefitting. If I post on an open forum it's with the assumption that I am encouraging the readership to provide input, opinions, and comments. If I wanted to control the feedback I would post it on my blog and moderate the comments. Sometimes you will get trolled or flamed, but that's just how it goes.

@JustForSport - I have found that "screwing" the pins in rather than hammering them helps some with allowing the pins to rotate more freely. Some of the pins are a bit more "sticky" than others, which may be in part due to the different grain structures in the wood. I am going to unscrew a few of them and experiment with bees wax as a lubricant to see if that helps with easier tuning. I may have to widen the holes a bit as well.

 

[reverendrally]

Personally, if you have the piezos installed, I'd leave em there and put them in as part of a blended circuit with a mag pickup. I did this on my first fretless and I'm about to do the same on the new one. Here's the sound file for the finished fretless. The piezos add "detail" to the mag sound.