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Lead singer wants my amp behind drummer?

#243
Kanekutter05 said:
Just got home, and it was an alright night when it was all said and done. So this “show” ended up being a house party at our lead guitarist house. I hadn’t got the address yet this morning so when he texted me that we were playing there I knew that wasn’t a good start.

So I show up and we are stuck in the basement and have maybe a 10x10 area to set up. He tells me “well looks like you’re in the corner bud” and starts setting up the keyboard amp right where I’m supposed to stand. I ask him what he’s doing and he says “oh just put your amp on the other side of the kit” which is not where I’m standing. I tell him that’s a pretty f***ing terrible idea because I’m barely going to hear the amp if it was at my feet as it is, so if it’s on the other side of the kit and I have the keyboard amp up my rear then that’s not gonna work. “Oh, well I guess we can switch them around.” Yes, yes that’s exactly what we’re gonna do.

So the 3 people in the front are the LS, lead guitar and keys and I’m shoved in this corner by the drums with an open back guitars cabinet (LS’s cabinet, naturally) 2 feet in front of me. So I set up my small pedalboard where I can and just try and enjoy the party. Free beer and food, so it was decent.

We soundcheck and get the levels halfway decent for what the room is, and we go hang for an hour. We come back down to play and immediately both guitars turn their amps up and the keyboard dimes her volume too. Welp, guess I’m turning up now as well. LS also proceeds to set 2 open beers on his amp where the vibrations very easily could shake them off onto my pedalboard. I just move them to the floor, and he moves them back up on the amp. Fine, I move my pedalboard onto my amp and we play the set. Couldn’t hear a freaking thing other than guitars and drums. I kept trying to hear my bass but it just washed out between all of the octavers and distortion between the 3 up front. We play the set, people cheer (sort of) and I pack up and head out. Not a great time.

Oh and the one thing I forgot to mention, we have this song we play last that had a very sudden staccato ending where every instrument just completely drops out. It’s a good song ending, but for the last song in the set it’s weird to just end abruptly and then say “thank you and goodnight!” So I suggest that we do that ending but play it out like it’s the end of the set so it’s, not so abrupt. LS says “nah I want it that way just because it’s different”. Whatever you say bud.

So on the way out the drummer pulls me aside and tells me he couldn’t hear me either and we both decided that we need to write some stuff together as a band that’s more sonically balanced. If that’s not an option on the table then we are going to break off and start something else.

I still like the guys in the band, and I want to be an adult and talk out the issues but I think he wants hired guns to play his stuff his way. But we are not paid, so I don’t know how he’s going to find that.
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This whole situation is about whether *you* want to do this gig. It's pretty much impossible to force people to do anything -- you can only control YOU.

In my (decades of) experience, I have found that it is tricky to ask someone to change their tone... volume is about the only thing you can even get a listen about. You have to discuss (there's that doggone communication thing again) frequency bands and say this is my space, will you guys please stay out of it so there's room for bass, AND will you agree not to turn up after the sound check. If they refuse, there's your answer. If the answer is yes, then remind them right before you start not to turn up. If everyone turns up anyway, then there's your answer. You have only to decide whether you want to continue playing in this situation.

If you are lucky enough to have people who are sensitive to your concerns and needs, then you can work out a mutually agreeable mix and set of levels. I wish you luck.
 
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#244
There seems to be a consensus here. Ditch the lead singer, and maybe the lead guitarist and keyboard player too. Given that in your post about the "gig" (use the term very loosely) you mention band members drinking beer, I'm guessing everyone is over 21. If they haven't learned the basics of "playing well with others" by that age, it's unlikely they will any time soon. Wannabe rock stars in their 20's and 30's can be massive P-I-T-A's to deal with, really not worth the time or trouble. Let's be brutally honest here, lead singers, lead guitarists, and keyboard players are pretty common. Other's can usually be found. On the other hand, a "right, tight, and outta sight" rhythm section is rare and can do very well working together steadily. Do the names Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Lee Sklar, and Russ Kunkel ring any bells? Life is too short and the club-level music business too hard to waste time with people whose egos have far outstripped their accomplishments.
Greg
 
#245
There are reasons why a singer might like to have an amp off his back, bass leaking on the vocal mic producing unwanted bass reverbs and delays, difficulties hearing himself on stage, whatever. Putting the amp behind the drummer is not a good way to go. You might try moving your amp to the side of the stage aiming at you and the drummer (stage mics are directional, might not leak). Other way is to have a "wedge" amp pointing at you so is more focused in your direction and you can use lower volume on stage (will benefit everyone), or... getting a good in-ear system. Most in-ear systems are a little "sterile" but you can overcome that with a good preamp for the FOH and a cheap amp simulator (an old L6 bass pod can do the trick) for your personal monitoring so it's less dull on your ears. Ideas...
 
#246
I've never seen a bass amp behind a drummer before..... as someone else said most stages wouldn't have the room for that anyway.
Have you asked the singer why they want your bass amp behind the drummer? and have you asked the drummer what they think of this?
if I was the drummer I wouldn't like having a grunty bass amp directly behind me.
 
#247
Kanekutter05 said:
Wow, thanks everyone for the responses! After reading all of these, my guess is that he wants the amp there for 1) volume dampening and 2) so the drummer could hear me better.

The other reason I definitely am not doing that now is because I am constantly fighting to find a frequency to where I can sit in the mix. As I said in the original post, we have the lead singer/rhythm player...he plays a distorted tone using a Markbass super synth pedal with the octaver on 99% of the time, then we have the lead guitar playing a distorted tone, and then we have the keys which play a synth-y type tone which also has an octaver effect and she plays down in the lower registers on the keyboard. With all that, there’s not much space for me anywhere in the mix.

I’m starting to think the singer just hates bass players...
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Have you considered joining a band that wants a bass player?
 
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#248
The worst thing about this story is the singer's idea of what a band should sound like sonically. I am all for dense music, experimental music and octavers but you really don't need a six piece to be dense and there's only so many instruments you want in the same part of the mix. It really sounds like they should forget about having a bassist or shift the keyboardist and maybe one other... but that ain't happening so good luck with the drummer!
 
#250
This does not make any sense at all, tell your singer to check any band he/she really likes how they sound and copy the set up. Drummers do not need to listen to amps (drums is the first track you lay down 99% of the time). Bass amp should be generally behind you and facing the guitar player so he knows when is playing in the wrong key. Monitors help change this set up.
 
#258
Kanekutter05 said:
Hey all, pre-apologies if this is common practice...but my band has our 1st show together on Friday. We were discussing how we will set up on stage and our lead singer tells me that he wants my bass amp completely behind the drummer. At 1st I didn’t pay that much attention to the statement, but then I started thinking about every show I’ve ever been to and how I’ve literally never seen the bass amp directly behind the drummer.

I will see him before the show so I’ll ask him why, but is there any reason whatsoever to put my bass amp directly behind the drummer? We have the lead singer (also plays rhythm guitar), lead guitar, keys, drummer and myself.

Any insight on that would be awesome, thanks in advance!
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No-no. no. no, no, no-no-no-no. You can't always get what you want. He hates your bass rig. He hates the drummer. He really hates the sound man. He wants to make you uncomfortable. Or, he thinks he has a good idea but really doesn't know what he's talking about. I've seen extra cabinets point at the drummer. I've seen drummers with their own little bass amp where they can control the volume. But nothing ever behind the drummer in 50 years. Bad idea. No room.
 
#259
Just my 02 cents. NEVER EVER seen or would want a bass amp "behind" the drummer. Yikes.

The objective is that the audience hear all of you . We used an "old" method that worked well. How big is the crowd and space you are playing ? ...... all amps were on the sides of the drummer or in front of the drummer a bit and to the side of them (never in front or behind them). They were hooked to speakers on the other side as well of the drummer. Distance from the drummer could be different each concert as to how far or how spread out they were due to the size of audience and space you are playing in. They are "aimed" for the sound of them to zero in and meet at the center point of the audience 3/4's of the depth / distance back you expect the audience to be. That way, the majority of the audience will hear ALL of you fairly well, and the mix will be better. Not bass on this or that side, etc. or anyone else for that matter.

Tell the singer .... they don't have a foggy clue what they are talking about ..... they're an idiot.

We had a lippy know it all singer once.... we left his feedback speaker plugged in, but unplugged them for a bit from the amps at a concert. So, they were the only one that heard it. Did that a couple of songs until they realized it. They threatened to quit, and we left them out of the next 2 concerts and did the singing. We had others in the band who could sing quite well. We warned them, we weren't their "support" group.... it was a band, a team and all parts of it were just as important as any other. They had input, but no business telling everyone else what they were going to do.
 
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#260
You need a real sound person, either someone with experience or someone with training or both - every venue is different, every room is different, every stage is different, and calls for a different set up for you to hear and be heard. Invest in some PA gear and use stage monitors, and with the right mixer and enough monitors to go around, everyone can get exactly what they want in their monitor, and none of what they don't want. Please don't put your amp behind the drummer, for his/her sake and for the sake of the people listening who would otherwise wanna shake their a$$ to your groove.
 
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