Leafenbacker

[JIO]

Well said, Geo.
I believe classic vibes are MIC and they are great.
If you're gonna make a copy make it well (as demonstrated in this thread)

Here's the thought provoking part.., so "x" company in China wants to 'capitalize' (funny right?, being a communist country) on the "Rock & Roll" market in America. (safe bet, all things considered) They have access to literally an unlimited number of slave-wage workers to produce the lowest-level of quality. For the bullish "entropenours" it's a win-win. (meaning they profit at the peoples deficit) But back to my point - some wiz-bang Chinese marketing genius came up with; "let's copy Lemmy's custom Rickenbacker bass". I wonder if it was because it shouts AMERICA (and England, R&R that is) or all the ornate carving struck an ancient cord. We'll never know.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Well, I suppose before we all get on our high horse about cheap crappy Chinese imports and the wage slaves who make them, take a drive on down to your local Walmart or harbor Freight (or Christmas Tree Shops, etc. etc.) and try to find something that ISN'T made in China, and look at the horde of proud patriotic Americans shopping there. The Chinese guitar market is just like every other manufactured goods market, they MAKE this junk because we Americans BUY this junk. I will admit that I briefly considered buying one of their Rick Bass clones as a "fixer-upper" and reconsidered, not because I adopt any high moral stance regarding cheap imports (that ship has sailed, my friends), but because buying one of these guitars is akin to gambling at a rigged craps table, you might get a nice upgradeable guitar cheap, you might get an unplayable piece of junk, you might get nothing and lose your money with no recourse.

Didn't mean to drift off topic Mapleglo, your bass still RULES!

 

[Hopkins]

Well, I suppose before we all get on our high horse about cheap crappy Chinese imports and the wage slaves who make them, take a drive on down to your local Walmart or harbor Freight (or Christmas Tree Shops, etc. etc.) and try to find something that ISN'T made in China, and look at the horde of proud patriotic Americans shopping there. The Chinese guitar market is just like every other manufactured goods market, they MAKE this junk because we Americans BUY this junk. I will admit that I briefly considered buying one of their Rick Bass clones as a "fixer-upper" and reconsidered, not because I adopt any high moral stance regarding cheap imports (that ship has sailed, my friends), but because buying one of these guitars is akin to gambling at a rigged craps table, you might get a nice upgradeable guitar cheap, you might get an unplayable piece of junk, you might get nothing and lose your money with no recourse.

Didn't mean to drift off topic Mapleglo, your bass still RULES!

Just from the pictures of that bass, I can tell it isn't worth close to the asking price. The engraving looks like a 5 year old did it with a wood carving set, and the stain they used in the engraving has soaked into the surrounding wood grain. If you want to see what kind of quality that bass is, just look how bad the wood is carved around the switch. That's not even counting the really cheap hardware, and pickups. That thing isn't worth half of the $528 they are asking for it.

It doesn't even compare to the work of art that Mapleglo has produced here.

 

[mapleglo]

Thank you all for your kind words. I like to keep in mind that a comparison between a hand made instrument that took over 6 months to build, will likely look at least a little better than many mass produced instruments. I'll add too, that I think all the individual parts used in my build likely cost twice to three times the asking price of the Asian copy. I wouldn't mind seeing one of the Asian made copies in person. It might just play fairly well.

 

[JIO]

Well, I suppose before we all get on our high horse about cheap crappy Chinese imports and the wage slaves who make them, take a drive on down to your local Walmart or harbor Freight (or Christmas Tree Shops, etc. etc.) and try to find something that ISN'T made in China, and look at the horde of proud patriotic Americans shopping there. The Chinese guitar market is just like every other manufactured goods market, they MAKE this junk because we Americans BUY this junk. I will admit that I briefly considered buying one of their Rick Bass clones as a "fixer-upper" and reconsidered, not because I adopt any high moral stance regarding cheap imports (that ship has sailed, my friends), but because buying one of these guitars is akin to gambling at a rigged craps table, you might get a nice upgradeable guitar cheap, you might get an unplayable piece of junk, you might get nothing and lose your money with no recourse.

Didn't mean to drift off topic Mapleglo, your bass still RULES!

I agree w/you but reject the high-horse reference. We all have the power to choose or not choose to support crap w/our money. However one justifies it is up to the individual and should be respected.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Jio,
I apologize if my post came out like it was directed at you personally, I'm as conflicted as the the next guy when it comes to buying American, more and more that's not a choice people can make economically even if they want to. I have fallen off my own High Horse more times than I can count! Appropriate case in point: I paid $400 for my 79' Jetglo Rickenbacker bass, with case, in 1980. Average yearly inflation rate from 1980-2013 = 3.5%, so by rights a current production Rick 4003 should cost around $862.00. Let's be generous and call it $1,000. Actual current market cost = $1,700-$2000 with a 6-12 month wait from the factory, or another $200-500 premium from some re-seller on E-Bay if you want it now. Of course there are tons of reasons why a particular product might not follow the inflation rate. Rick is propping up an absurdly high price by limiting production to create supply shortages, and aggressively enforcing copyright to prevent anyone from making lower cost knockoffs. More power to them, that's capitalism at it's purest. Since the Chinese ignore copyright, have no environmental protection, no laws regarding worker rights, etc., the result is predictable. They see a market niche and fill it. As the sophistication of their production gradually improves, they are going to drive a lot of American guitar makers out of business unless we institute draconian tariffs that will be labeled "protectionism". Youtube is packed with video reviews of various "Chickenbackers" and "Chibsons", some of which look to be pretty well made, or can be upgraded at reasonable cost. People are making a choice between getting blatantly price-gouged buying American, or supporting an amoral dictatorship that undercuts our economy. Crappy set of choices. Fender is already outsourcing huge sections of it's production to Mexico and Indonesia, so it's getting harder to call it an American Made product anyway.

All that said, I'm still determined to make as faithful a copy of my original long-lost 4001 as I can cobble together, clearly not a sound economic decision! Just the Rick parts themselves are outrageously expensive, not to mention lumber costs.
Mapleglo: If you don't mind saying, do you have a rough idea what your Leafenbacker cost to build? I'm going to keep track of what I spend for any other would-be amateur luthiers as a cautionary tale!

 

[Hopkins]

Jio,
I apologize if my post came out like it was directed at you personally, I'm as conflicted as the the next guy when it comes to buying American, more and more that's not a choice people can make economically even if they want to. I have fallen off my own High Horse more times than I can count! Appropriate case in point: I paid $400 for my 79' Jetglo Rickenbacker bass, with case, in 1980. Average yearly inflation rate from 1980-2013 = 3.5%, so by rights a current production Rick 4003 should cost around $862.00. Let's be generous and call it $1,000. Actual current market cost = $1,700-$2000 with a 6-12 month wait from the factory, or another $200-500 premium from some re-seller on E-Bay if you want it now. Of course there are tons of reasons why a particular product might not follow the inflation rate. Rick is propping up an absurdly high price by limiting production to create supply shortages, and aggressively enforcing copyright to prevent anyone from making lower cost knockoffs. More power to them, that's capitalism at it's purest. Since the Chinese ignore copyright, have no environmental protection, no laws regarding worker rights, etc., the result is predictable. They see a market niche and fill it. As the sophistication of their production gradually improves, they are going to drive a lot of American guitar makers out of business unless we institute draconian tariffs that will be labeled "protectionism". Youtube is packed with video reviews of various "Chickenbackers" and "Chibsons", some of which look to be pretty well made, or can be upgraded at reasonable cost. People are making a choice between getting blatantly price-gouged buying American, or supporting an amoral dictatorship that undercuts our economy. Crappy set of choices. Fender is already outsourcing huge sections of it's production to Mexico and Indonesia, so it's getting harder to call it an American Made product anyway.

All that said, I'm still determined to make as faithful a copy of my original long-lost 4001 as I can cobble together, clearly not a sound economic decision! Just the Rick parts themselves are outrageously expensive, not to mention lumber costs.
Mapleglo: If you don't mind saying, do you have a rough idea what your Leafenbacker cost to build? I'm going to keep track of what I spend for any other would-be amateur luthiers as a cautionary tale!

I don't see an American made instrument as being overpriced when you factor in materials and how many man hours actually go into building one. The factory has to pay their workers a decent wage, while still making a profit, then their dealers have their markups as well.

 

[JIO]

Jio,
I apologize if my post came out like it was directed at you personally, I'm as conflicted as the the next guy when it comes to buying American, more and more that's not a choice people can make economically even if they want to. I have fallen off my own High Horse more times than I can count! Appropriate case in point: I paid $400 for my 79' Jetglo Rickenbacker bass, with case, in 1980. Average yearly inflation rate from 1980-2013 = 3.5%, so by rights a current production Rick 4003 should cost around $862.00. Let's be generous and call it $1,000. Actual current market cost = $1,700-$2000 with a 6-12 month wait from the factory, or another $200-500 premium from some re-seller on E-Bay if you want it now. Of course there are tons of reasons why a particular product might not follow the inflation rate. Rick is propping up an absurdly high price by limiting production to create supply shortages, and aggressively enforcing copyright to prevent anyone from making lower cost knockoffs. More power to them, that's capitalism at it's purest. Since the Chinese ignore copyright, have no environmental protection, no laws regarding worker rights, etc., the result is predictable. They see a market niche and fill it. As the sophistication of their production gradually improves, they are going to drive a lot of American guitar makers out of business unless we institute draconian tariffs that will be labeled "protectionism". Youtube is packed with video reviews of various "Chickenbackers" and "Chibsons", some of which look to be pretty well made, or can be upgraded at reasonable cost. People are making a choice between getting blatantly price-gouged buying American, or supporting an amoral dictatorship that undercuts our economy. Crappy set of choices. Fender is already outsourcing huge sections of it's production to Mexico and Indonesia, so it's getting harder to call it an American Made product anyway.

All that said, I'm still determined to make as faithful a copy of my original long-lost 4001 as I can cobble together, clearly not a sound economic decision! Just the Rick parts themselves are outrageously expensive, not to mention lumber costs.
Mapleglo: If you don't mind saying, do you have a rough idea what your Leafenbacker cost to build? I'm going to keep track of what I spend for any other would-be amateur luthiers as a cautionary tale!

It's ok, I didn't think it was personal - but as an artist I am pretty sensitive to hand-made vs race-to-the-bottom quality products to start with, and I also want to be a part of elevating - not devaluing human potential/worth. I agree w/Hopkins about price tag vs real cost of much of what we buy. Our reference has been distorted because everyone is so used to (and now expects) paying so little for MIC, MII etc that MIA seems expensive. It's the same with gasoline costs here in the US vs the rest of the world. This cheap cost (yes, even the gas-pump cost we pay today is cheap related to real cost) has a bigger cost that includes things unpleasant to think about in terms of the big picture.

I owned a '86 4003 (split pg) and enjoyed it while I did - it was a nicely flamed Fireglo. I fortuned into it for $400 w/OHSC a couple years ago. The orig pu's were replaced w/EMG J's and the stereo harness was also replaced and other parts were missing and it could'a benefited from a fret job (only apparent when picked) - but otherwise intact. I ordered (MIA) replacement pu's, foam mute and mute screws from Ric, found/bought an '85 harness on ebay, and made a wht pearl pg for it. Good as new for an addition $400. I eventually sold it for $1250 so made a little profit for my efforts and someone got a really nice vintage Ric for a fair price. I look at this as a legit business scenario - something I support and feel good about. Capitalism as it's been distorted here in america I have issues with.

 

[mapleglo]

...
Mapleglo: If you don't mind saying, do you have a rough idea what your Leafenbacker cost to build? I'm going to keep track of what I spend for any other would-be amateur luthiers as a cautionary tale!

That's actually a difficult question to answer, and depends on how you look at it.

I'd guess the actual parts that went into the build would add to something in the $1000 - $1500 range. If you look at all the dollars I spent on everything to get this finished, including parts I didn't end up using, but bought because I needed a few options, and tools that I bought specifically for this build, that I didn't own prior, but needed to finish the job, such as the sewing machine for the pickup winder, and the table saw as just 2 examples, I'm likely closer to $3,000.00. Of course, I'll likely use the sewing machine for future pickups, and I've already used the table saw on other projects, so those costs would be amortized over time.

With any build, especially for a new builder such as myself, there's always going to unforeseen costs that add up. The nuts and bolts that hold in the pickups, as an example. I wasn't sure what length I'd need, so I bought an assortment between 3/4" and 1-1/4" (and as it ended up, I think I'm going to need 1-1/2" lengths as I want to raise them just a bit more). All told, that was like $10 or $15. Now, I'll have some for the next build - maybe, but I had to outlay the $15 to move forward. And that happened time and time again. And don't get me started on sandpaper. And drill and router bits. And the nuts and bolts for the tremolo bar extension - which I may or may not even use.

This is one reason I'm not quickly dismissing the chickenbacker bass. It's really an incredible bargain, even if the quality is not there. If the neck and body are sound, one could always refinish it and swap out parts, and still end up spending less compared to a true RIC, or if they built one themselves.

Regarding the American vs. Asian product debate, I do try to buy American when I can. We've stopped shopping at Walmart almost completely a few years back, and opted to spend more at the regular supermarket in support of the higher percentage of American (or north american products, if you include all the stuff grown in Mexico) products, and other American based stores - Home Depot, Lowes, Fry's, etc. Of course, *everyone* of those has some percentage of Asian products.

I'm starting to agree with the concept behind the movie "Network", if anyone remembers that one. Arthur Jensen says:

You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it! Is that clear?! Do you think you've merely stopped a business deal? That is not the case. The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance! You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multi-variate, multi-national dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and sub-atomic and galactic structure of things today! And you have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and You Will Atone!
Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and ITT and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state - Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable by-laws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale; it has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality - one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock - all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.

Network was as prophetic as 1984.

 

[Aceonbass]

Gilmourisgod....While inflation is running about 3.5% now, it's also unusually low. I only wish inflation in the 80's had been that low. Current prices on a comparable US made item are closer to three or four times what they were in 1980, making a new Rick bass a good deal. Except for my effect pedals, I had no problem sourcing the US made gear currently filling my living room

 

[Dadagoboi]

A $1000 in 1980 had the buying power of about $3000 today...that's with a 3.2% annual inflation rate, compounded, which is the way inflation is calculated.
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
There are a lot of sites that will give similar results.

 

[JIO]

That's actually a difficult question to answer, and depends on how you look at it.

I'd guess the actual parts that went into the build would add to something in the $1000 - $1500 range. If you look at all the dollars I spent on everything to get this finished, including parts I didn't end up using, but bought because I needed a few options, and tools that I bought specifically for this build, that I didn't own prior, but needed to finish the job, such as the sewing machine for the pickup winder, and the table saw as just 2 examples, I'm likely closer to $3,000.00. Of course, I'll likely use the sewing machine for future pickups, and I've already used the table saw on other projects, so those costs would be amortized over time.

With any build, especially for a new builder such as myself, there's always going to unforeseen costs that add up. The nuts and bolts that hold in the pickups, as an example. I wasn't sure what length I'd need, so I bought an assortment between 3/4" and 1-1/4" (and as it ended up, I think I'm going to need 1-1/2" lengths as I want to raise them just a bit more). All told, that was like $10 or $15. Now, I'll have some for the next build - maybe, but I had to outlay the $15 to move forward. And that happened time and time again. And don't get me started on sandpaper. And drill and router bits. And the nuts and bolts for the tremolo bar extension - which I may or may not even use.

This is one reason I'm not quickly dismissing the chickenbacker bass. It's really an incredible bargain, even if the quality is not there. If the neck and body are sound, one could always refinish it and swap out parts, and still end up spending less compared to a true RIC, or if they built one themselves.

Regarding the American vs. Asian product debate, I do try to buy American when I can. We've stopped shopping at Walmart almost completely a few years back, and opted to spend more at the regular supermarket in support of the higher percentage of American (or north american products, if you include all the stuff grown in Mexico) products, and other American based stores - Home Depot, Lowes, Fry's, etc. Of course, *everyone* of those has some percentage of Asian products.

I'm starting to agree with the concept behind the movie "Network", if anyone remembers that one. Arthur Jensen says:



Network was as prophetic as 1984.

Network rules - it should be rebroadcast today on every channel as a must-see wake-up call.

 

[mapleglo]

Network rules - it should be rebroadcast today on every channel as a must-see wake-up call.

And to add to this, there's a Syfy series called "Continuum", in which a cop from the future goes back in time to our time, along with a bunch of prisoners who were sentenced to death. In that future, the Network prediction comes true, and that world is ruled by corporations. We can see this taking shape today, where the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are indeed people too, and have the right to contribute to the political campaigns of their chosen candidate. The beginning of the end.

 

[JIO]

And to add to this, there's a Syfy series called "Continuum", in which a cop from the future goes back in time to our time, along with a bunch of prisoners who were sentenced to death. In that future, the Network prediction comes true, and that world is ruled by corporations. We can see this taking shape today, where the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are indeed people too, and have the right to contribute to the political campaigns of their chosen candidate. The beginning of the end.

The other clarion quote from Network we all need to adopt: "I'm as mad hell - and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

And another more recent quote by a certain statesman: "Corporations aren't people - people are people."

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Maplego:
I came within inches of buying a Chickenbacker bass for my son, and besides the bad taste it would have left in my mouth, just read too many bad reviews from people who got burned by Aliexpress and Alibaba. I don't have $300-500 lying around to essentially gamble with. Most people seem to get what they order, or something similar to what they ordered, but if you get burned you are toast (no pun intended). Supposedly they hold your money in escrow, and there is some kind of mediation process to resolve disputes, but in fact Aliexpress virtually always sides with the sellers, or insists you return defective products to China at your own expense. I tried e-mailing their customer service to see what would happen, all you get is an automated response from a robo-server somewhere. I don't think there actually are any human customer service people.This review is pretty typical, the people who actually got what they ordered thinks it's great, but LOTS of people get hosed. Since the Chickenbackers are a clear copyright violation, you can also lose your order to US customs if they happen to check the container with your bass in it.
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.aliexpress.com

I'm starting a new thread for my build to be titled "The Hossenfeffer Bass". I hope you will take a look sometime and offer any advice you might have. This will be my first complete from-scratch build, so It's going to be a long slow haul. I have the bass all drawn up in CAD and am accumulating parts. Sticker Shock!

 

[mapleglo]

Maplego:
I came within inches of buying a Chickenbacker bass for my son, and besides the bad taste it would have left in my mouth, just read too many bad reviews from people who got burned by Aliexpress and Alibaba. I don't have $300-500 lying around to essentially gamble with. Most people seem to get what they order, or something similar to what they ordered, but if you get burned you are toast (no pun intended). Supposedly they hold your money in escrow, and there is some kind of mediation process to resolve disputes, but in fact Aliexpress virtually always sides with the sellers, or insists you return defective products to China at your own expense. I tried e-mailing their customer service to see what would happen, all you get is an automated response from a robo-server somewhere. I don't think there actually are any human customer service people.This review is pretty typical, the people who actually got what they ordered thinks it's great, but LOTS of people get hosed. Since the Chickenbackers are a clear copyright violation, you can also lose your order to US customs if they happen to check the container with your bass in it.
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.aliexpress.com

I'm starting a new thread for my build to be titled "The Hossenfeffer Bass". I hope you will take a look sometime and offer any advice you might have. This will be my first complete from-scratch build, so It's going to be a long slow haul. I have the bass all drawn up in CAD and am accumulating parts. Sticker Shock!

Thanks for the review about the chickenbacker - good to know. And I look forward to your build. I'll keep my eyes open. And yes, the parts really add up quickly. After my first build, and about 2/3's of the way through this one, I realized that I could buy a brand new Ric for what I was spending on each build. So I did

 

[Brett Zeppelin]

Boy, this thread sure did get political.

Nice bass, man. Keep up the good work.

 

[Ric5]

Since the Chickenbackers are a clear copyright violation,

Trademark ... not copyright

 

[Spectrum]

Boy, this thread sure did get political.

Nice bass, woman. Keep up the good work.

Fixed.

As for Chinese basses, some good, some bad. The Fender Blacktops and Modern Players are all made in China, I think, and the Squier Vintage Modifieds are made in Indonesia, and they are all of decent quality. But I'd never waste my money on one of those junky Ric copies.

If I ever want a good Ric copy, I'll PM mapleglo and see if I can work out a deal with her. This thread speaks volumes. Or JohnK, he does nice ones, too.

Meanwhile I'll enjoy the real thing, which, despite popular myth, don't really cost all that much.

 

[mapleglo]

Fixed.

As for Chinese basses, some good, some bad. The Fender Blacktops and Modern Players are all made in China, I think, and the Squier Vintage Modifieds are made in Indonesia, and they are all of decent quality. But I'd never waste my money on one of those junky Ric copies.

If I ever want a good Ric copy, I'll PM mapleglo and see if I can work out a deal with her. This thread speaks volumes. Or JohnK, he does nice ones, too.

Meanwhile I'll enjoy the real thing, which, despite popular myth, don't really cost all that much.

I have a Fender Modern Player Dimension, which is made in China. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this bass. The fit and finish is, well, perfect as far as I can tell, and I really don't see where they cut any corners as far as quality is concerned. I suppose time will tell, but I like the bass. It's no Rickenbacker, but it's a perfectly fine bass.

And I agree that by todays standards, the Rickenbacker is priced where it should be. Especially when one considers that a Fender Precision can cost more for some of the versions. All comparable models, like the MM, Jazz, Gibson offerings, etc, are in the same range.

And of course, my build rates are reasonable too

Boy, this thread sure did get political.

Nice bass, man. Keep up the good work.

Thanks! Politics are us

To satisfy the moderators, I'll go back on topic, and post a comparison pic:

I just swapped the pick guard and truss rod cover to black, to make the Ric more black. I posted a sequence post on the creation of the pieces over on the Ric Club thread. This picture is my latest three projects - the Leafenbacker, the SVT810e refinish, and the blackout Jetglo.

Now I can start on my pedalboard, and 4001.