okay so im in this new band.. and im trying to learn thier brand new song they wrote, next practice due to exams is in a week and a half. So he sends me 3 songs.. im like sick give me the roots. Oh well just learn it by ear... Im like well... just give me the roots so i dont have to waste time stumbling around the fretboard to slowly figure out what they hell they are playing. Its not like the songs are 100 notes per second or anything, but im just not good at this. Im like okay well just give me a scale... oh we dont write in scales we just write and whatever sounds good is what "scale" were in. Okay so bottom line is am i the only one who asks for roots and keys to write my parts? Im very happy about the skill and songwriting ability but i cant help but feel hes being stubborn just to make me figure out somthing he could probbolly tell me in about 20 seconds.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
learning by ear
- Thread starter tremor100
- Start date
Stubborn? Probably he's just tired of having to tell you the root notes if you can't figure them out or you just don't want to do the work. In a band everybody should pull their own weight. And learning the chord structure of a song by ear is definitely not "a waste of time", it's called ear training. Do you always want to be dependent on others to tell you the notes?
umm cant say i wasnt expecting this type of unfriendly response. Its not that im not pulling my own weight, these guys WROTE and have been practicing the damn song. Whenever i write a song i dont say yo #$*@ you go figure it out yourself. And like they were like its in G major i could improvise easily. Whatever
It's possible he doesn't know what chords/key/scale whatever he is playing in. The guitarist in my band usually just gives me a chord chart which I play from, which works out fine. Lately I've been trying to figure the songs out by ear at rehearsal just so I don't have to rely on the charts.
The fact of the matter is, you DO need to work on ear training. It may take you some time to figure it out, but if he isn't willing to give you the roots, you need to use your ears. Take it slow, once you figure out the first couple of chords it'll be easier to figure out the rest of the song.
The fact of the matter is, you DO need to work on ear training. It may take you some time to figure it out, but if he isn't willing to give you the roots, you need to use your ears. Take it slow, once you figure out the first couple of chords it'll be easier to figure out the rest of the song.
Now look, I wasn't trying to be unfriendly, I just said my thoughts on the issue. If someone comes to a rehearsal with a new song, I don't expect anyone to tell me the chords (or even the key it's in). Nor do they expect me to ask for them: they play it, and I pick it up by ear.
You said he sent you 3 songs and you have a week and a half 'til next rehearsal? Even better, then you can practice the songs at your own pace at home without the stress of the other guys sitting at the rehearsal waiting for you to figure it out. It's always better to show up at the rehearsal prepared, it saves everybody's time.
I've done lots of cover gigs with no rehearsals at all: usually in those situations I get a CD of the songs and/or a set list beforehand. Very rarely do I get any chord sheets, unless there's a complex song with lots of changes in the set list. And to pull it off successfully everybody's expected to do their homework, that's a given.
You said he sent you 3 songs and you have a week and a half 'til next rehearsal? Even better, then you can practice the songs at your own pace at home without the stress of the other guys sitting at the rehearsal waiting for you to figure it out. It's always better to show up at the rehearsal prepared, it saves everybody's time.
I've done lots of cover gigs with no rehearsals at all: usually in those situations I get a CD of the songs and/or a set list beforehand. Very rarely do I get any chord sheets, unless there's a complex song with lots of changes in the set list. And to pull it off successfully everybody's expected to do their homework, that's a given.
I agree with Pete here.
If you have over a week until the next rehearsal, that should be enough to figure the three songs out by ear. It's really not that hard - once you start doing it, you get better at it and soon it becomes second nature. Some people learn faster than others, but I have yet to see a person totally unable to learn by ear.
While I don't think it's too much to ask for a chord sheet, especially on the beginner-intermediate levels, learning by ear is something everyone have a use for. It takes some time to get really good at it, but once you're there, you'll never have to face this problem again.
About a month ago, I handed a bunch of 40 songs to a couple of friends for an upcoming gig we had booked. Las week we had the gig and it went great. We rehearsed three evenings and played every song once or twice. When you need to learn a bunch of songs quickly, it's vital that the people in the band knows the songs at the rehearsals. The rehearsals are generally NOT for the individual musicians to learn their parts. It's very frustrating when someone has to struggle with figuring out riffs or so on a rehearsal when he has been giving the songs in advance. Instead, on rehearsals you see how the songs works in the band, decide the form, tempo and dynamics, perhaps change the key if necessary, check who will play solo where and practice certain details in the songs like breaks and cues.
Figure out these three songs by ear. You won't regret it. I promise you that.
If you have over a week until the next rehearsal, that should be enough to figure the three songs out by ear. It's really not that hard - once you start doing it, you get better at it and soon it becomes second nature. Some people learn faster than others, but I have yet to see a person totally unable to learn by ear.
While I don't think it's too much to ask for a chord sheet, especially on the beginner-intermediate levels, learning by ear is something everyone have a use for. It takes some time to get really good at it, but once you're there, you'll never have to face this problem again.
About a month ago, I handed a bunch of 40 songs to a couple of friends for an upcoming gig we had booked. Las week we had the gig and it went great. We rehearsed three evenings and played every song once or twice. When you need to learn a bunch of songs quickly, it's vital that the people in the band knows the songs at the rehearsals. The rehearsals are generally NOT for the individual musicians to learn their parts. It's very frustrating when someone has to struggle with figuring out riffs or so on a rehearsal when he has been giving the songs in advance. Instead, on rehearsals you see how the songs works in the band, decide the form, tempo and dynamics, perhaps change the key if necessary, check who will play solo where and practice certain details in the songs like breaks and cues.
Figure out these three songs by ear. You won't regret it. I promise you that.
tremor100: Yes, you should be able to figure out the notes by hear in that amount of time. Yes, learning songs by ear is outstanding ear training. And, yes, without a doubt, this guy is being a complete asshat by not giving you the chords he's playing. Unless he is also your bass instructor, he has decided that he is going to make your life as miserable as possible just because he can. Unless he treats everyone in the band this disrespectfully, he has singled you out for abuse and possibly to drive you to quit. You are going to have to decide, quickly, how much crap is it worth eating to be in this band.
you do realize there are people not as fortunate as you in regards to 'having an ear.'
I can't stand when people whip out their 'elitist' attitude on the innocent... geez...
I wasn't trying to be elitistic or arrogant, I was just trying to make the point that in the long run the OP is better off if he does the work and develops his ear. I've played bass for 26 years and ok, I've always found it fairly easy to pick up songs by ear, but despite having some natural ability I too had to work on it. A lot.
I don't have a natural "ear" at all. Am getting better at it.......but still struggle mightily.
What I do to find the note is play the music, hit pause, go around the fretboard until I find what I think is the note (there's only 12 choices....). Rewind, play the note I think it is with the recording, repeat until I get it. Once I have the first note, I'll try a major scale over top of the recording to see if most of those notes fit. No go, then I try a penatonic (1 34 1 34 13) one. If that works, then it's just a matter of listening to a bar, pausing, finding the notes, continue.
Sometimes it's *really* easy......sometimes I have to get help. Help might be finding a tab (won't work in OP case), or asking another musician. My guitar player is pretty good at picking out notes, and doesn't mind helping me work through a song if I've tried it and just don't get it.
Some people don't *know* theory and can't tell you what key they're in, like your guitar player. Becomes a bit of a clash when different musical training levels play together..... It may not be a matter of *won't* tell you the notes, they probably can't! So it's up to you to decide if that's the way you want to work with this band. If not.......find another. Or you could teach the guitar player some theory.
For instance, I learned how to play bass at blues jams. So I'm used to someone saying, it's a 2 51 turnaround......it's a 1 4 5, etc. Honestly, I didn't learn much of the fret board because I'd just find the key note and use the scale degrees (instead of note names). I join up with a rock group, they're calling me out notes, I'm lost. But, they stuck with me and now I can do both (usually.....still working on it!). Plus, now they know a bit about 1 4 5's and all that. However, had they told me to "just learn it" and refused to help.......it wouldn't have worked....
Just wait until you get to play with people who capo...how about alternate tunings.......wheeeee!
What I do to find the note is play the music, hit pause, go around the fretboard until I find what I think is the note (there's only 12 choices....). Rewind, play the note I think it is with the recording, repeat until I get it. Once I have the first note, I'll try a major scale over top of the recording to see if most of those notes fit. No go, then I try a penatonic (1 34 1 34 13) one. If that works, then it's just a matter of listening to a bar, pausing, finding the notes, continue.
Sometimes it's *really* easy......sometimes I have to get help. Help might be finding a tab (won't work in OP case), or asking another musician. My guitar player is pretty good at picking out notes, and doesn't mind helping me work through a song if I've tried it and just don't get it.
Some people don't *know* theory and can't tell you what key they're in, like your guitar player. Becomes a bit of a clash when different musical training levels play together..... It may not be a matter of *won't* tell you the notes, they probably can't! So it's up to you to decide if that's the way you want to work with this band. If not.......find another. Or you could teach the guitar player some theory
. For instance, I learned how to play bass at blues jams. So I'm used to someone saying, it's a 2 51 turnaround......it's a 1 4 5, etc. Honestly, I didn't learn much of the fret board because I'd just find the key note and use the scale degrees (instead of note names). I join up with a rock group, they're calling me out notes, I'm lost. But, they stuck with me and now I can do both (usually.....still working on it!). Plus, now they know a bit about 1 4 5's and all that
. However, had they told me to "just learn it" and refused to help.......it wouldn't have worked....Just wait until you get to play with people who capo...how about alternate tunings.......wheeeee!
I think your question to the guitarist is not too much an imposition.. but you can look up these songs' main lines on tab sites.. or even music sites. I don't care for impatient musicians, but then again, I don't care for IF (not in your case) a guy comes to practice unrehearsed. There is a fine line between "Tell me what notes to play because I have not studied the songs" and "Tell me what notes to play.. I am struggling.. I have tried to learn this stuff, but it is escaping me.. or I have exams for which I must study.. any other time, I would lock myself in a room and learn these songs.. but just this once, can you send me the root notes.."
I don't think it's too much that you're asking, but I have shown up for rehearsals where the guitarists deliberately changed things to throw me off, even told me he was "testing me.." I passed a few of them, and did not do well for one song where the guy tuned down just to test.. anyway, I have to say I try not to judge.. but I do.. and guitarists can be as ego-driven as any musician I've ever encountered. My suggestion is to learn the songs via tab, music, or tell the guy your services are not available pending exams... or unless he gives you the chord progressions, even verbally.
I don't think it's too much that you're asking, but I have shown up for rehearsals where the guitarists deliberately changed things to throw me off, even told me he was "testing me.." I passed a few of them, and did not do well for one song where the guy tuned down just to test.. anyway, I have to say I try not to judge.. but I do.. and guitarists can be as ego-driven as any musician I've ever encountered. My suggestion is to learn the songs via tab, music, or tell the guy your services are not available pending exams... or unless he gives you the chord progressions, even verbally.
i am in agreement to others who are asking you to figure out the songs by ear unless they are mental insane sounds which have no sense in relation to the normal music you hear (but in that case there would hardly be any chords or roots right?)
i am also not really good at it but i have started to pick stuff by ear and this has really improved after i started on keyboards dunno why though
i am also not really good at it but i have started to pick stuff by ear and this has really improved after i started on keyboards dunno why though
I don't think its a big deal to ask the guy about keys, tuning, any charts, etc..
Why should there be any problems with it. Hell, the guy wrote the song he should be able to tell the dude what key it's in.
It's about communication - the more, the better in my book.
Why should there be any problems with it. Hell, the guy wrote the song he should be able to tell the dude what key it's in.
It's about communication - the more, the better in my book.
hey thanks guys. The thing is first off, these arent covers lol... if it was yea it wouldnt be a problem lol. Secondly i do realize this might be a valuable skill as a musician, but its just not the way ive learned and every other band ive been in its as simple as telling me and me blending it with fills and rythyms. Also its not a matter of i want to leave this band, they are really talented and i clicked right away when i auditioned a week ago. And its not easy to find a decent band where i live. And hes even told me he doesnt remeber the chords and stuff for certain songs.. im like how do you forget somthing that you wrote???? I was just wondering if everyone just learned by ear or what. Thanks for the feedback guys.
Regardless of whether the guy is a jerk or not, the more you do it the easier it gets. And the easier it gets the more jams, rehearsals and playing-at-homes you'll be comfortable at. I didn't start out with a great ear, and it's not all that great now, but it's 1000 times better than when I started. Forget your guitar player- do it for yourself. And honestly, I don't think recommending ear training to a musician is any more elitist than recommending learning to drive a stick shift to a truck driver- you're going to limit your possibilities in a big way without it. 
If you can't figure out the tonal center of the song, try playing around an octave or two above where you normally play. It may be easier to pick out notes that "sound good" in this range and work from there.
I think it's ridiculous that people have suggested it's elitest to say that you should just use your ear to work out songs and parts. And the claims that the guitarist is being egotistical by not giving any help are bull too.
Your ear is an essential tool as a musician and anyone that is unable to use it is ill equipped to be a part of a band. I understand that it can be difficult to train, but in my opinion (and i'm definitely not alone here) without the ability to sit down and work out a song by listening to it, no matter how much time it takes, just isn't ready to be a part of a band.
Your ear is an essential tool as a musician and anyone that is unable to use it is ill equipped to be a part of a band. I understand that it can be difficult to train, but in my opinion (and i'm definitely not alone here) without the ability to sit down and work out a song by listening to it, no matter how much time it takes, just isn't ready to be a part of a band.
I'm all for ear training, but it is insanely elitist to say "you don't deserve to be in a band" to anybody. It's elitist to tell anyone how & when they should enjoy or not enjoy making music, especially when their own ears aren't being subjected to the cacophony in question.
Ear training is important, but so is enjoying your crafts or hobbies along the way to developing a golden ear -which yours must certainly be, no doubt Mozart himself would marvel at your ability to identify Gb9 chords in the vacuum of space.
I'm reminded of that episode of The Wonder Years where Kevin Arnold joins a rock group & they're asked to play at someone's house party. The closing quote from the episode was "We weren't going to be good, but we were going to be loud."
Next you'll be telling me ugly people don't deserve to have sex...
I just posted something about help with ear training...I'm working on it and getting there, however I'm uncertain of my ear at this point, and I'm pretty sure Tremor feels the same way...
So tell me what the Goran key of the song is so I can fraking learn it right the first time (thats why people came up with the whole concept of music theory and musical communication, am I wrong?), I don't mind figuring out the song but I want to know that I'm on the right track so I don't come in a week later thinking I know something when I'm really totally unprepared.
Honestly what would be the bigger pain telling me what key your in and maybe a quick rundown of the chord progression (all of 3 minutes)? Or me coming back in a week and a half in the wrong key and thinking the song is I IV I IV instead of I IV I V or whatever.
Its not to say that ear training isn't important but if I'm going to devote a week to learning a song you wrote, the least you could do is make sure I'm on the same page as you? If a guitarist asked me what scale I was playing I'm not gonna be like "go hang yourself with your E-string." I'm gonna tell him B-blues.
As for calling people who can't hear exactly whats being played "pathetic" or "sub-par" the same could be said about a guitarist who doesn't have a basic enough understanding of what he is playing to know that its in A minor. You may have spent the past 2 years in the basement trying to play albums by ear and me the past 2 years in music theory class, doesn't make either one of us less of a musician, we both understand the same thing in two different ways, so lets cut the crap.
Me, you and your guitarist all have something to learn... in-fact next time I would say "look, I'll learn song #1 by ear but you have to walk me through song #2 and if you don't know what your playing then lets figure it out together and this way we all learn something."
So tell me what the Goran key of the song is so I can fraking learn it right the first time (thats why people came up with the whole concept of music theory and musical communication, am I wrong?), I don't mind figuring out the song but I want to know that I'm on the right track so I don't come in a week later thinking I know something when I'm really totally unprepared.
Honestly what would be the bigger pain telling me what key your in and maybe a quick rundown of the chord progression (all of 3 minutes)? Or me coming back in a week and a half in the wrong key and thinking the song is I IV I IV instead of I IV I V or whatever.
Its not to say that ear training isn't important but if I'm going to devote a week to learning a song you wrote, the least you could do is make sure I'm on the same page as you? If a guitarist asked me what scale I was playing I'm not gonna be like "go hang yourself with your E-string." I'm gonna tell him B-blues.
As for calling people who can't hear exactly whats being played "pathetic" or "sub-par" the same could be said about a guitarist who doesn't have a basic enough understanding of what he is playing to know that its in A minor. You may have spent the past 2 years in the basement trying to play albums by ear and me the past 2 years in music theory class, doesn't make either one of us less of a musician, we both understand the same thing in two different ways, so lets cut the crap.
Me, you and your guitarist all have something to learn... in-fact next time I would say "look, I'll learn song #1 by ear but you have to walk me through song #2 and if you don't know what your playing then lets figure it out together and this way we all learn something."
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
Post a funnier picture than the one above - Parallel Universe Edition
- Latest: BassicJazzy
-
