Learning Chords Vs. Scales for beginners

[younggun]

WHAT! LMAO! WHAT! This from you? What!

Perfect example if what I am talking about. You are taking something I wrote about your statements and misconstruing that to mean I am attacking you.

The initial above quote from me is NOT about YOU. Its about the points you posted. The advice you gave in this thread about staying ignorant about theory is what I've debated, in no way did I ever say anything about you personally or pass judgement on you, but I did debate your point and gave my thoughts on your posts.

To clarify for you:
This quote from me...

Thanks for posting all that though. Seriously. Before, someone might have actually taken your "advice" as meaningful, but by you weighing in on the importance of staying ignorant and shortsighted, it will hopefully dissuade them from further doing so (good job with the ad hominem at the end too, that really goes a long way to legitimizing your points).

...was in direct response to this statement you had made:

Don't be a TFW (theory flag waver) those dudes are stuffy and like to look down on all who don't agree on their ways and the feel music should only be done..OH wait! too late you are one

That quote from you is an ad hominem. The ad hominem is a classic argument fallacy. The idea is that by attacking the person, their argument is somehow de-legitimized while your's is legitimized. OR its the misconception that a debate is a personal attack, and therefore a personal slur is made as a response. Either way it has nothing to do with the actual debate.

My quote is NOT about YOU. Its about the points you posted. An "attack" on your statements is not an attack on your character. The advice you gave in this thread about staying ignorant about theory is what I've debated, in no way did I ever say anything about you personally or pass judgement on you, but I did debate your point and gave my thoughts on your posts. I welcome you to do the same: point out what you think is wrong with my argument, not me.

 

[bassbully]

Perfect example if what I am talking about. You are taking something I wrote about your statements and misconstruing that to mean I am attacking you.

The initial above quote from me is NOT about YOU. Its about the points you posted. The advice you gave in this thread about staying ignorant about theory is what I've debated, in no way did I ever say anything about you personally or pass judgement on you, but I did debate your point and gave my thoughts on your posts.

To clarify for you:
This quote from me...


...was in direct response to this statement you had made:


That quote from you is an ad hominem. The ad hominem is a classic argument fallacy. The idea is that by attacking the person, their argument is somehow de-legitimized while your's is legitimized. OR its the misconception that a debate is a personal attack, and therefore a personal slur is made as a response. Either way it has nothing to do with the actual debate.

My quote is NOT about YOU. Its about the points you posted. An "attack" on your statements is not an attack on your character. The advice you gave in this thread about staying ignorant about theory is what I've debated, in no way did I ever say anything about you personally or pass judgement on you, but I did debate your point and gave my thoughts on your posts. I welcome you to do the same: point out what you think is wrong with my argument, not me.

Yeah right...nice try kid You is what you is and I can smell your BS all the way over here...I'm out

 

[younggun]

Yeah right...nice try kid You is what you is and I can smell your BS all the way over here...I'm out

Once again you're assuming something about me that isn't true...unless you consider a 40 year old a kid, and also once again, you hurl an insult instead of discussing the point.

If you want to stop discussing something with me, that's fine I don't have any problem with that, but for some reason you find it necessary to get personal again.

I can happily agree to disagree with someone when its for logical reasons, and based on sound judgements. You made an extreme statement that contradicts most accepted thought on music pedagogy. Then when someone (me) disagreed with that you either took it as a personal attack, or decided (for some reason I don't understand) to lower the discussion to that level, instead of discussing it rationally and presenting your case well. I wonder if you seriously thought no one would disagree with you?

Its too bad you chose to take it personally and not continue in a logical manner, maybe our discussion would have kept evolving. As it is, you're right...there's no reason to continue our discussion, nothing productive is arising from it.

I've disagreed with several things others have said on this thread, yet they and I have managed to not get personal. I hope you can take this away from this thread if nothing else: its the internet, its a discussion forum, and people will disagree with you.

 

[c4lvint1me]

never mind ive got it..cuz i saw the tabs for crazy train(ozzy osbourne) and i all of a sudden you had to play 2 strings at the same time so i was just wondering how you play it

 

[anonymous122511]

never mind ive got it..cuz i saw the tabs for crazy train(ozzy osbourne) and i all of a sudden you had to play 2 strings at the same time so i was just wondering how you play it

With your fingers....the ones attached to your hands?

 

[bassix67]

never mind ive got it..cuz i saw the tabs for crazy train(ozzy osbourne) and i all of a sudden you had to play 2 strings at the same time so i was just wondering how you play it

Thumb and index

 

[c4lvint1me]

Thumb and index

Thank You...

 

[c4lvint1me]

With your fingers....the ones attached to your hands?

yes il play chords with my fingers attached to my hands

 

[anonymous122511]

yes il play chords with my fingers attached to my hands

Atta boy.
Read my sig and think about it for a few minutes.

 

[younggun]

which fingers do you use to play chords??

This is a good example of why I advocate getting a teacher. To the questioner it seems like a legit question, but that's because you don't understand what it is you are asking.
There is no single, one way only, of "playing chords" on the bass. You need to get a grounding in both the why (theory) of music, and the how (technique) of your instrument. Its not that you can't learn those things on your own, but the path to doing so will be filled with problems that having a good teacher would minimize.
A consistent, guided, and progressive methodology is a must for a beginner. You'll save yourself a lot of time and trouble in the long run.

 

[HolmeBass]

The names of the tones in a chord, divorced of a key center and referenced by numbers, are the "I", the "III", and the "V" for the simplest major triad. Where do those numbers come from? They come from the major scale. I say learn the major scale and the relative minor scale, then jump into chord building. After getting chords down pat, then circle back and pick up the rest of the major scale modes and learn the harmonic minor scale. Just my opinion as a way to order the material.

 

[KwinS]

The names of the tones in a chord, divorced of a key center and referenced by numbers, are the "I", the "III", and the "V" for the simplest major triad. Where do those numbers come from? They come from the major scale. I say learn the major scale and the relative minor scale, then jump into chord building. After getting chords down pat, then circle back and pick up the rest of the major scale modes and learn the harmonic minor scale. Just my opinion as a way to order the material.

This is the way I was taught. It worked well, and I haven't had to seek counseling in the long run.
Except I would say it is composed of the 1st, 3rd (major or minor), and the 5th. Using the Roman numeral "III" in this case indicates a major 3 chord, which it would not be, even though the I would be major, and the V would be perfect.

Otherwise, this gets +1 from me.

 

[conttador]

Actually chord tones and scale tones are based on the harmonic series of oscillation of a plucked string or column of air, physics/acoustics. If you divide a string into equal length segments, it will oscillate at different frequencies. Divide it in half and you get an octave (your 12th fret harmonic). Divide it into thirds you get a fifth. Four equal segments, a root again. Five equal segments you get the major 3rd. If you continue to divide the string into smaller equal length segments you will get the rest of the 12 notes that are the basis for western music. Note that the root, fifth and major 3rd come up first, they are the most prominent. It is not a coincidence that major chords are built from these 3 notes or that those 3 notes sound good together. The chords and scales we use are based on the physics and the physics points to the chord tones having more importance than the other scale tones.

It's too bad very few people take the time to understand the math and physics involved in music!

 

[conttador]

Ever hear of the Pareto Principle? The rule of 80/20. It says that the majority of your progress or success comes from a much smaller percentage of your effort. In many cases, it works out to 80% of the results come from 20% of the work done. The exact percentages are not important and will vary depending on the situation/application. What is important is the idea that an overwhelming majority of the results come from a small portion of the the time spent. To take advantage of this principle, that can be univerally applied to most endeavors, the key is to find out what is the small percentage of work that produces the most results and to spend more time doing that to improve or increase the efficiency of the process --> equal results from less time spent or more results from the same amount of time spent.

What is the role of the bass? The most frequently used and widely accepted definition I've heard is: to create/reinforce the groove with the drums/rhythm section and to outline the harmonic structure of the song. How do you define the harmonic structure of a song? Chord tones. Key signatures give you a scale that should work fairly well over an entire piece or section of a song, 7 notes spread out over a large section of time (58% of the possible 12 notes). Chord tones are generally 3-4 notes (25-33% of all possible notes) and can be applied at a given time that not only work well and sound good but they specifically define the harmonic structure/chord progression of the song.

So applying the Pareto Principle to the role of playing bass, what is the small portion of where you could spend your time that will give the most results? Chord tones and rhythm/groove.

The original question was, "which should I practice more, scales or chord tones?" One benefit of practicing chord tones is that the more you do it, the more you begin to hear the harmony, this happens automatically with repetition. Since bass players generally play one note at a time, it will take even longer to learn to hear the harmony than it would for someone playing a chordal instrument like guitar or piano. On another thread about ear training, someone said they were great at identifying scales but terrible with intervals and chords. From that description alone, it was pretty obvious what they practiced the most and that person confirmed that they spent most of their time on scales as opposed to chord tones and intervals. What you practice the most is what becomes the easiest to hear. The better you hear something, the easier it is to play it automatically without having to think about it.

Learning how scales are created and how chord tones are derived from those scales is essential to understanding the big picture. Scale tones and chromatic tones are great for making a line more intersting by creating some variation, creating fills, or adding melody/counter-melody and should be learned and practiced, without a doubt. These things are the small portion of the total picture or desired results and should be focused on less because they are not the primary function. These are the things that makes players different from one another and add the flavor and excitement to a bass line but they are worthless unless you can really do the 2 main things well, outlne the harmony and lay down the groove.

Learn scales and theory but spend your time practicing and mastering chords and groove.

I remember the Pareto principle from statistics and statictical quality control. Never thought about applying it in music!

Very cool!

 

[younggun]

The names of the tones in a chord, divorced of a key center and referenced by numbers, are the "I", the "III", and the "V" for the simplest major triad. Where do those numbers come from? They come from the major scale. I say learn the major scale and the relative minor scale, then jump into chord building. After getting chords down pat, then circle back and pick up the rest of the major scale modes and learn the harmonic minor scale. Just my opinion as a way to order the material.

I was given a book to start off that melds both the scalar and chordal approach in one methodology, it is called "Mel Bay's Complete Book Of Bass Technique" written by the incomparable Bunny Brunel. Unfortunately its out of print now. Essentially you start off with the major diatonic scale, but instead of just playing the notes of the major scale up and down, the scale is played in note fragments and intervals.

For example in the scale of C, you'd start with 3 note fragments: CDE, DEF, EFG...etc in the first postion (Ionian and Locrian), then reversed back down (If you're playing a 4 string bass then you'd go to the C on the G-string, down to the G on the E-string and back up to the starting C on the A-string, the position is obviously extended on extended range basses).

Then the same 3 note fragment played descending EDC, FED, GFE etc. then combine the 2 patterns and so on.

Then you'd do the same in 4 note patterns, 5 note patterns, and 6 note patterns.
Then intervals are covered in the same manner: thirds: C,E DF, E,G....etc. fourths CF, DG, EA,
Then of course fifths, sixths, sevenths.

Then triads: CEG, DFA, EGB (low and behold you're now playing arppregiated chords ) and of course you then add the seventh.

Next you move up to the Dorian position on the fretboard (starting on D of the C scale) and do all the same, repeating in all the modes up the fretboard.

Then the you move on to doing the same in Melodic Minor, Harmonic Major, Diminished and Whole tone scales.

Then you can start practicing it in every key.

The trick is trying to keep your mind in the game the entire time you are practicing it as well: not just playing rote patterns, but naming notes, intervals, chord names etc. the entire time you're practicing.

As you can see it marries the basics of scalar study and harmonic study in one method, not to mention gives you a ton of practice material for a very long time.