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Learning songs vs learning riffs
- Thread starter belzebass
- Start date
Riffs or songs -- I enjoy playing songs, but, to play songs I need some riffs, grooves etc. that I can call up as needed.
I play from chord charts, so I follow the chord progression with a bass line that I feel fits the specific song in question. I have stored several chord tone bass lines (I suppose you could call them riffs) in my bag of tricks and I use the one that I feel fits an area of the song. For example R-R-R-R or R-5-R-5 or R-5-8-5 or R-3-5-b7 the list goes on... and we then get into walking lines, pentatonic scales, etc.
My point being I enjoy playing songs, I do not think just a string of riffs would be that rewarding; but, I had to work on and file in muscle memory a lot of "riffs" to be able to play those songs I enjoy playing.
Long post to say if you play from fake chord, as I do, you see the chord name and then reach into your bag of tricks and pull out the "riffs" you need for this song.
I play from chord charts, so I follow the chord progression with a bass line that I feel fits the specific song in question. I have stored several chord tone bass lines (I suppose you could call them riffs) in my bag of tricks and I use the one that I feel fits an area of the song. For example R-R-R-R or R-5-R-5 or R-5-8-5 or R-3-5-b7 the list goes on... and we then get into walking lines, pentatonic scales, etc.
My point being I enjoy playing songs, I do not think just a string of riffs would be that rewarding; but, I had to work on and file in muscle memory a lot of "riffs" to be able to play those songs I enjoy playing.
Long post to say if you play from fake chord, as I do, you see the chord name and then reach into your bag of tricks and pull out the "riffs" you need for this song.
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I am talking more of the instructive value of learning songs vs playing riffs.
As to me, riffs are:
- More technique specific (workable at different bpms, can target specific weakness precisely)
- Really appropriate time-wise for a shed session (Learn a riff inside out in 45 minutes is doable, a song rarely so)
In general, to me, riffs are smaller chunks of knowledge easier to put in a single session.
As to me, riffs are:
- More technique specific (workable at different bpms, can target specific weakness precisely)
- Really appropriate time-wise for a shed session (Learn a riff inside out in 45 minutes is doable, a song rarely so)
In general, to me, riffs are smaller chunks of knowledge easier to put in a single session.
Learning the song, on the other hand, will teach you about creating and changing moods within a peace of music. It will teach you about the importance of dynamics, tempo changes etc.
Both have values, you need to see what you need to achieve. Personally, I prefer working the riffs too, as they are more convenient for transposing, changing fingerings, thus learnign about the fretboard etc.
Both have values, you need to see what you need to achieve. Personally, I prefer working the riffs too, as they are more convenient for transposing, changing fingerings, thus learnign about the fretboard etc.
You don't mention playing with other people, either in a band or jam situation. If playing with others is a goal, learning the riff only but not the rest of the song won't get you very far. Maybe work with your teacher to figure out why you can't learn a song in 45 minutes. Seems like a realistic goal; many musicians can play a song correctly on the first or second try. If you're not one of those people, ask yourself "why not"? Maybe your teacher can recommend exercises to improve whatever skills are holding you back, whether it be reading, ear training, or simply selecting material of the appropriate level of difficulty (a common challenge for beginners). If you are not learning 5-10 songs per week, then you are choosing material that is too hard for you, and probably feeling pretty frustrated that it takes you so long to learn an entire song. 
You don't mention playing with other people, either in a band or jam situation. If playing with others is a goal, learning the riff only but not the rest of the song won't get you very far. Maybe work with your teacher to figure out why you can't learn a song in 45 minutes. Seems like a realistic goal; many musicians can play a song correctly on the first or second try. If you're not one of those people, ask yourself "why not"? Maybe your teacher can recommend exercises to improve whatever skills are holding you back, whether it be reading, ear training, or simply selecting material of the appropriate level of difficulty (a common challenge for beginners). If you are not learning 5-10 songs per week, then you are choosing material that is too hard for you, and probably feeling pretty frustrated that it takes you so long to learn an entire song.
I do play with people rather regularly, and rely strongly on riff-like playing
But as a personal practice, I'm now working more on the technical side of playing (consistency, speed, groove, solid tempo and subdivisions), so it takes quite some time to get even a 2-bar riff rolling with different metronome exercices. Plus I try to transcribe what I play, and it's painstakingly slow for me. I guess, here's a huge weakness I have to work on
Maybe soon I'll grow to learn a song in one or two 1 hour sessions...
While a riff is a vital part of some songs to be a useful bassist you really need to learn the more mundane parts of the song as well.
We had a keys player who could play the intro or signature riff to almost any song (as long as it had a keys intro or riff). Ask him to play the rest of the song and he was stumped. We don't have him now.
We had a keys player who could play the intro or signature riff to almost any song (as long as it had a keys intro or riff). Ask him to play the rest of the song and he was stumped. We don't have him now.
The biggest thing you need to learn as a bassist/guitarist for song writing is the turn around and how you move from one section of the song to another. With just learning the main riff you miss out on how the musician approached the turn around to keep the song moving forward.
It's your time ... do what makes ya happy. Personally, I can't see the point, unless being the Saturday afternoon Guitar Center bass show-off is the goal. I've never seen a "bass player wanted" ad that was looking for someone who could just play familiar riffs.
If you are learning some Dream Theater ... of course learn the riff otherwise it isn't the same song ... playing rock where whatever bass line would do because it isn't important then you learn the chord progression.
I also see riff like jazz cat who use their "riff" in various key during solo because not every night you are inspired
I also see riff like jazz cat who use their "riff" in various key during solo because not every night you are inspired
I had an interesting experience last night playing with friends. I invited a guy I know who plays guitar to come over and play with us. He could play some heavy metal songs and even some hard rock or regular rock, but when we said we were going to warm up with a simple 1,4,5, progression he had no clue what we were talking about! We even told him the 3 chords and he wasn't able to follow along with the changes! He went and sat down and watched. I mean he was shedding some heavy leads, when he was done setting up, but he couldn't even play the three chords and tell when we changed! He had no theory skills whatsover. On the way home I offered to teach him some stuff when he had time. So I guess learning songs can be a good skill, but learning theory and some riffs, and knowing how to apply them will take you a lot further. To be fair plenty of great musicians learned to play by learning songs note for note, and storing those songs and riffs from those songs, and developing a good ear to apply them later. I guess maybe it doesn't work for some though! I think that along with the riffs you need to understand chord structure and be able to play those notes without really thinking about it too much. I rarely learn songs note for note. I may learn the chord structure and listen to the drums or what rhythm the bass is playing and use scale and chord tones and maybe some lick I picked up along the way. Anyway I guess it boils down to working on everything but I think basic theory is really a necessity to get really skilled on your instrument. Some songs have a riff that is the song structure. Think Sunshine of your love by Creem or any number of Black Sabbath songs. But you probably never use that same exact riff in another song!
We (briefly) had a guitarist like this join our band, we were playing some old standard (C Am F G) and he had to write the chords down because he had never played them before. We queried him on this because he had his own home studio and written and recorded many CDs*. He was quite a bit younger than us and had been in bands in his youth and they obviously never played that chord sequence but we still found it incredible that he had never come across it before.
*His wife had a beauty salon and he provided all the background music, mostly instrumental, so she didn't have to pay royalties. He had a nice little earner selling them to other salons.
*His wife had a beauty salon and he provided all the background music, mostly instrumental, so she didn't have to pay royalties. He had a nice little earner selling them to other salons.
I like to learn whole songs, which necessarily include the riffs. You need both.
Without the song, its just a career at trying of basses at Guitar Center.
Without the riffs, it's just roots and fiffs.
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Without the song, its just a career at trying of basses at Guitar Center.
Without the riffs, it's just roots and fiffs.
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Not quite sure i'm following you on this one. You don't really have to play the song note for note. You have a whole fretboard to use that goes beyond roots and fifths. Not that their is anything wrong with roots and fifths!
Well, yes, that was just supposed to be a humorous way of illustrating the problem of knowing only one of the two things in question.
There's a lot to a song, to making it sound good. And getting the roots and 5ths just right is part of it also. I always learn the song initially note for note(if possible), but don't necessarily play it note for note. I do try to keep the essence of the song however. Sometimes that essence is in the riffs, sometimes it is the more rythmic part of the bass, sometimes it is in strong roots.
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