Light Came On

[NoTalentHack]

I kind of feel like an idiot posting this but hey, if I can't laugh at myself I shouldn't laugh at others -and I like laughing at others.

I've been "playing" bass for about five years (notice the quotations) but that just means I've been memorizing tabs that "some other no talent hack wrote down incorrectly" (as a member put it on another thread).

I've been reading through the lessons section on this forum so I started practicing and studying scales, chords, etc. but it has been kind of confusing because I think I was jumping all over the place trying to learn too much.

Well, last night I decided I would just practice the major R, 3, 5 in different keys and concentrate on learning the fretboard. Here comes the "duh" part . . .

After about 20 minutes I finally realized I was just playing the same pattern over and over just on different parts of the neck depending on the root.

So, I went to the internet and sure enough I found where y'all talk about "patterns".

Man, what a maroon. Now that I've had that revelation I should be able to move forward from the R, 3, 5 and learn more hopefully with the result of actually learning the fretboard.

God bless TalkBass.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Yep, once the pattern light comes on it gets pretty simple. For what it is worth - I looked and listened to approximately 100 riffs in two bass books/CD that I have and settled on these 8 as being something I could use. Help yourself.

R-5
R-4-5
R-3-5-3
R-3-5-7
R-R-3-3-5-5-6-5
R-8-7-5-7-R
R-8-7-5-7-5
R-8-5-6-5

Those 8 will let me do what I need with the music we play.

Something else I'm working on right now is a list of the songs we normally do showing the following information:

Name........................Key....... Progression.......... Riff
Spanish Eyes............. F.......... I-V-I-IV-V-I........ R-5

I can't stop loving...... G.......... I-IV-I-V-I........... R-3-5-3

All of me.................. G.......... I-iii-V-I .............. R-3-5-3

Today..................... G.......... I-IV-V-I.............. R-4-5

Blue Eyes................ C.......... I-IV-I-V-I............ R-5

The guys know what key and sometime forget to let me know. As we pretty much follow the same order a quick glance down the list reinforces what I need to be doing with this song.

O'h yes, I use the Nashville numbering system - I IV V instead of chord name G C D7 - part of visualizing the pattern - once I placed the pattern I think I IV V -- seems to work best for me.

Have fun.

 

[Jimmy Bones]

^ That confuses me.

 

[Rudreax]

Yeah...if I were you I'd just remember the basic idea behind this and make up your own patterns.

 

[Johnny StingRay]

It is even more fun when you add the 7th to the R, 3, 5..............then you will start to "see" patterns in those patterns.

That is so cool that you have that figured out. It will make your playing easy and add confidence to your abilities to move around the fretboard.

Congratulations!

 

[JTE]

I still, 30 years later, recall when the light came on. I was playing in a country band doing R/5 for a song in G. I then "saw" the overlap of the G B D, C E G, and D F# A C patterns over the G major scale. It was such a great revelation to really "know" and understand why those three chords are in the key of G, how the G scale relates to the chords, and how to harmonize the scale.

About two minutes after that, is when I figured out that playing the G major scale as fast as you can over those three chords kinda works, but it's utterly tasteless... and gets you funny looks from the guitarist, the singer, and your buddy in the audience who's a great bass player!

John

 

[Johnny StingRay]

I still, 30 years later, recall when the light came on. I was playing in a country band doing R/5 for a song in G. I then "saw" the overlap of the G B D, C E G, and D F# A C patterns over the G major scale. It was such a great revelation to really "know" and understand why those three chords are in the key of G, how the G scale relates to the chords, and how to harmonize the scale.

About two minutes after that, is when I figured out that playing the G major scale as fast as you can over those three chords kinda works, but it's utterly tasteless... and gets you funny looks from the guitarist, the singer, and your buddy in the audience who's a great bass player!

John

Excellent perspective. That is the reason that I DO NOT play modes over chords..........you are right, it is "utterly tasteless".

 

[Billnc]

Excellent perspective. That is the reason that I DO NOT play modes over chords..........you are right, it is "utterly tasteless".

If you look at it like "modes provide note choices" things can get tastier.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Thanks for all the suggestions and input. That riff list from MalcomAmos will make for good practice. I'm off to look up "modes".

 

[NoTalentHack]

I still, 30 years later, recall when the light came on. I was playing in a country band doing R/5 for a song in G. I then "saw" the overlap of the G B D, C E G, and D F# A C patterns over the G major scale. It was such a great revelation to really "know" and understand why those three chords are in the key of G, how the G scale relates to the chords, and how to harmonize the scale.

About two minutes after that, is when I figured out that playing the G major scale as fast as you can over those three chords kinda works, but it's utterly tasteless... and gets you funny looks from the guitarist, the singer, and your buddy in the audience who's a great bass player!

John

Hilarious, yet informative.

 

[Asher S]

Well, last night I decided I would just practice the major R, 3, 5 in different keys and concentrate on learning the fretboard. Here comes the "duh" part . . .

After about 20 minutes I finally realized I was just playing the same pattern over and over just on different parts of the neck depending on the root.

Here are some more patterns that turned the light on for me a while back. I put this here as just another perspective, and not as the only way to learn, hear, and understand modes.

Like you seem to do, I search for patterns as a way to reduce seemingly complex information into manageable, easily understood (and therefore remembered) concepts. I know and respect JTE's take on memorizing vs. learning... using patterns is just the way I learn. To each his own, YMMV etc etc.

A little about MODES​

Learn about "chord-scale compatibility", i.e., the C major scale is the Ionian scale (I) C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, ... the II scale in C major is the D Dorian scale (D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D), and so on with III (Phrygian), IV (Lydian), V (Mixolydian), VI (Aeolian), and VII (Locrian)

Memorize all these scale patterns and practice shifting between them keeping in mind where you are relative to your root key (i.e. I, II, V, etc). Practice intervals, arpeggios etc across these scales, ascending, descending, also ascending on only 2 strings up 2 octaves, then descending down a different area of the fretboard. Hours of fun. PLUS, you'll see interval, harmony and chord patterns and relationships you may not have previously noticed.

This is most easily seen in the chart below. I'm not a professional musician, so anyone more knowledgeable out there: please correct me if there's something wrong here.

The Dorian pattern is offset to the left on purpose, because I want to remind myself to start with my second (index) finger for the Dorian scale. For all other patterns, if the first dot is in the bottom left position, start with the second (index) finger. If there's an open fret space left of the first dot, start with the 3rd (middle) finger. The reason for this is that if you follow this convention, then moving up or down a single string (rather than using the next string up or down) will always have the pattern continue 1 whole tone up from the last note in the 2 or 3-note section of the pattern... This makes it much easier to move around the fretboard with accuracy.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Thanks, Asher. I'm printing this up for further digestion. A few years ago a guy taught me a "blues" scale and that is about the only thing I have memorized, probably because it sounds so cool just playing it back and forth and mixing it up a little. I never really made the connection that the pattern is something that applies all across the board (so to speak).

I just may get up enough nerve to get some professional instruction. You guys are great. Thanks!

 

[JTE]

Well, that little revelation 30 years ago saved me from modes. The thing is that modal thinking in music that's not based on modes leads you down a path that's uneccasarily complicated. Saying "use D dorian for Dmin, G Mixolydian for G7 and C Ionian for C major" may get you to the right notes, but it obfuscates the connections between those chords. It leads one to think in terms of a different scale for each chord. That totally obliterates the idea that those chords are all IN THE SAME SCALE.

No, whether I'd been playing G Ionian, C Lydian, and D Mixolydian, or just running G diationic major, it's the same problem. But looking to the modes for note choices rather than merely knowing they're all in the same key and what the chord tones adds a level of complexity to note choices that isn't needed. Besides, I look at it like ANY of the 12 notes can be used within the chord if it's musical. The point is that you need to know your target notes, which are chord tones. If you're thinking modally in a chordal piece, then it's harder to define the harmony (one of the two key functions of a bassist no matter the music) becasue you're not thinking harmony.

John

 

[Billnc]

Well, that little revelation 30 years ago saved me from modes. The thing is that modal thinking in music that's not based on modes leads you down a path that's uneccasarily complicated. Saying "use D dorian for Dmin, G Mixolydian for G7 and C Ionian for C major" may get you to the right notes, but it obfuscates the connections between those chords. It leads one to think in terms of a different scale for each chord. That totally obliterates the idea that those chords are all IN THE SAME SCALE.

No, whether I'd been playing G Ionian, C Lydian, and D Mixolydian, or just running G diationic major, it's the same problem. But looking to the modes for note choices rather than merely knowing they're all in the same key and what the chord tones adds a level of complexity to note choices that isn't needed. Besides, I look at it like ANY of the 12 notes can be used within the chord if it's musical. The point is that you need to know your target notes, which are chord tones. If you're thinking modally in a chordal piece, then it's harder to define the harmony (one of the two key functions of a bassist no matter the music) becasue you're not thinking harmony.

John

You know I think we see things the same way. You've got to know the chord tones first. I use leading tones, double chromatic approaches, etc etc far more than any modal thinking. I may think modally when playing upper extensions to chords (I'd play a +11 on a IV before a I) This is what I meant by note choices.

 

[Asher S]

Well, that little revelation 30 years ago saved me from modes. The thing is that modal thinking in music that's not based on modes leads you down a path that's uneccasarily complicated. Saying "use D dorian for Dmin, G Mixolydian for G7 and C Ionian for C major" may get you to the right notes, but it obfuscates the connections between those chords. It leads one to think in terms of a different scale for each chord. That totally obliterates the idea that those chords are all IN THE SAME SCALE.

No, whether I'd been playing G Ionian, C Lydian, and D Mixolydian, or just running G diationic major, it's the same problem. But looking to the modes for note choices rather than merely knowing they're all in the same key and what the chord tones adds a level of complexity to note choices that isn't needed. Besides, I look at it like ANY of the 12 notes can be used within the chord if it's musical. The point is that you need to know your target notes, which are chord tones. If you're thinking modally in a chordal piece, then it's harder to define the harmony (one of the two key functions of a bassist no matter the music) becasue you're not thinking harmony.

John

I just find that, once I could "see" the mode patterns on the fretboard, and how they all fit & sound relative to each other AND especially within the major scale, the entire fretboard opened up in my mind. This became especially clear when I practiced 1/3/5/7 arpeggios sequentially through all the modes... just a different path to the same knowledge.

 

[NoTalentHack]

"I just find that, once I could "see" the mode patterns on the fretboard, and how they all fit & sound relative to each other AND especially within the major scale, the entire fretboard opened up in my mind. This became especially clear when I practiced 1/3/5/7 arpeggios sequentially through all the modes... just a different path to the same knowledge."

"You've got to know the chord tones first."

"The point is that you need to know your target notes, which are chord tones."

These are the things that make sense in my simple mind. Thanks again.

 

[dogbluedrummer]

Something else I'm working on right now is a list of the songs we normally do showing the following information:

Name........................Key....... Progression.......... Riff
Spanish Eyes............. F.......... I-V-I-IV-V-I........ R-5

O'h yes, I use the Nashville numbering system - I IV V instead of chord name G C D7 - part of visualizing the pattern - once I placed the pattern I think I IV V -- seems to work best for me.

Have fun.

Question, is the Nashville numbering system based on the chromatic major scale? I ask because most of the songs I play fit well with the monor pentatonic scale.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Question, is the Nashville numbering system based on the chromatic major scale? I ask because most of the songs I play fit well with the minor pentatonic scale.

Not the chromatic as such.
I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim for Major
i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI, VII for minor
Upper case = major chord. Lower case = minor chord. I'm country and everything is major, I've never tried NNS with minor progressions - have to give that some thought..... should not be a problem.

Pentatonics
Major pentatonic = the 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 notes of the Major scale.
Minor pentatonic = the 1, b3, 4, 5, b7 notes of the Major scale.
It's really just a matter of visualizing the difference in the patterns. If you are playing minor pentatonic your using different notes so the pattern is different.

Minor Pentatonic Pattern
|-b3--|-----|--4--|-----| -1st string
|-b7--|-----|--1--|-----|
|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|
|--1--|-----|-----|-b3--| -4th string

Major Pentatonic Pattern
|--2--|-----|--3--|-----| -1st string
|--6--|-----|-----|--1--|
|--3--|-----|-----|--5--|
|-----|--1--|-----|--2--| -4th string

Place the 1 (root note or the first note) on the 4th string 3rd fret and you have G scale notes waiting for you. Place the 1 on the 5th fret and A scale notes are waiting. If you want Major use the Major pattern if you want minor use the minor pattern. Think of the pentatonic as being a riff - place the pentatonic as the chord's change.

 

[Johnny StingRay]

If you look at it like "modes provide note choices" things can get tastier.

I guess you are right about that. Maybe I need to put some effort into learning that.

It appears I have been quite closed minded about modes.

Thank you for the inspiration.

 

[Blake Bass]

Not the chromatic as such.
I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim for Major
i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI, VII for minor

This is not the Nashville number system. Nasville doesn't use Roman numerals. A typical (basic) Nasville chart might look something like this

1 1 1 1
57 57 1 1
1 1 1 1
57 57 1 1
4 4 4 4
1 1 57 57
1 1 1 1
57 57 1 1