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line out vs mic

#141
well, i'm thinking of some of the repercussions of going ampless, and there was once where i went ampless and the drummer started screaming at me that he wanted to hear the bass out of an amp and not his monitor. also, there are times where we don't get any more than 4 mixes, which could possibly make it difficult since there's 5 of us. plus i'm not sure i want to hear my bass out of my monitor, either, since i do a fair amount of lead singing.

however, i'm failing to see the downside of going di with a vt or british after yesterday. it's not better but it's not worse. i don't know...i guess we're going to have to have a long discussion about the ampless part, but maybe i could give up the mic. i know bowzer would love it if we went ampless since he hates to hear anyone but himself.
 
#142
For my money, it depends a lot on the cab you run. If you have a relatively flat cab, what you put into the mic or take out of your amp di is essentially equivalent. Either works fine.

Where you really run into trouble is some of these bass cabs that have "colored" sounds. You adjust the amp to compensate for the cabinet, the DI signal then becomes the mirror image of your cabs imperfections. That DI signal is going to be hard to compensate for and make sound good. In that case, most anyone would like a mic better. Either that or you depend on the coloration of the cab to get your sound, which will not be present in the DI signal.

So I dont think there's one better than the other, sometimes one is best, sometimes the other is best, sometimes you can get good results out of either.

Jimmy, thanks for your contributions, always a pleasure, man...

Also I've taken to putting an isolation transformer between my amp di and the board, just in case the phantom power is on. Transformer won't pass DC. I think I've blown my preamp a couple of times from that, wont' let it happen again.

Randy
 
#143
Without reading anything posted, I used to play through 16 10"s (2 ported 410's with horns + a sealed 810) I was, and pretty much still am a mic'd bassist at heart.

I had a engineering spec- (out the back door- but paid for :)) Peavey designed for K drum mic that rocked! In the studio or live I was told it was the best thing ever/ couldn't beat the sound mic. I won every arguement with SM and that mic btw...:)

Of course it was stolen after opening for an unnamed national act :(

The reason I went to a mic in the first place- having played all over, was that soundmen where guitard freaks. 10's/ or 15's sound great on stage but don't translate to soundmen at all. They would work on the guitar, drums, vocals, then- lets hear the bass for a second with the drums... Then screw the tone up so bad with a DI I literally got sick a few times. Wireless tells the story.. and it ain't usually pretty.

This time (new rig with a 15 yr reunion band) I said screw all the headaches of live sound bass. I got some (for bass) PAish, FLATish cabinets instead of 10's which I lovvvveeeee but am tired of fighting for. I can now run DI and pummel the sound man if he screws it up :)

This, of course won't help anyone, but it's my long drawn out mic/ DI story.
 
#144
all speaker cabinets color/ effect the sound of your instrument,
just like every mic responds differently and will further effect the sound
that eventually comes out of a pa.
just like different transformers in direct boxes.
what is really flat?
if you heard your bass through something truly "flat"
you'd probably hate it, we don't perceive volume/ frequency response that way... enter fletcher-munson...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
 
#145
JimmyM said:
i have experience on both sides of the board. i prefer the sound of the mic when i've got an amp that's good, and i prefer a di when the amp sucks.
Click to expand...
I also have enough experience on both sides, and this comment nails the whole thread to the wall.

Most bassists I've worked with in the last few years have had decent rigs, and the signal from their amp's Post-EQ XLR output was an accurate approximation of their tone that worked well with the FOH.
Peavey, Eden, Ampeg, rack gear beyond measure.

If a player wants a cab or two mic'd, or needs a direct/mic/efx mix, I'll set that up.

Can't really understand a soundman not wanting the best bass tone possible, but will remind y'all that it's the damned drummers, singers, and guitarists that are taking all our time and energy and tools.
Your rig might sound like heaven, but I have to run a ridiculous FOH EQ curve because your singer is constipated.

Bass will usually suffer before anyone else, seeing as how the general public is fixated on lyrics and melody and message over cool bass tones.
 
#148
For those of you that have tweeter cabs... and crank the treble for slap stuff... How to place the mic to get accurate sound that includes the tweeter output in the right proportion?

Seems it would be difficult to get the mic placed just right to not be overwhelmed by either the main driver or the tweet, you're usually micing so close to the speaker to minimize bleed, that a little bit off, too close to one or the other, could cause a huge difference in the relative input from the tweet vs the main driver.

I would think that might be a good case for a DI rather than a mic. Single type of driver cabs (8x10, 2x12 etc) without a tweet would be much easier to mic reliably.

Randy
 
#150
randy, i've found that the tweeter generally gets picked up regardless as long as the mic isn't too too far away. however, those who like to mic cabs rarely use tweeters and those who like tweeters love di's so it's rarely an issue. and even if they like to mic cabs, they almost always run a di.
 
#151
so i've thought about going ampless all week, and here's my conclusion:

screw that!

i've decided i like my sound coming from behind me too much, and i like the sound coming out of a cab optimized for bass rather than a thin sounding monitor optimized for everything but bass. and because of bowzer, using side fills is o-u-t out. so an amp it will be.

i think i will quit using a mic once i get my vt deluxe, though. i did some playing around with my amp, the vt, the british, and a mic at home this week, and i'm now convinced i can get the same sound with the vt or british as i can with a mic'ed amp. however, i reserve the right to change my mind as the wind blows ;)
 
#153
Muaguana said:
What's baffling to me is you people seem to think soundmen are just hobos picked up off the street and paid a dime to run a soundboard. Their job is to make things sound good. That's what they are trained to do, that is what they went to school for (the ones who shelled out the money to attend technical schools, that is.) Soundmen are, for the most part, musicians themselves, and to assume they're so dense as to not represent the bass accurately just shows how inept you are. Their job is to represent everyone onstage accurately enough to enhance the performance and make the concert more enjoyable for all attending.

Personally, I would sacrifice my ego and tone if it would make the mix sound better, because it's the music as a whole that's important, not my fears of insecurity and need to reaffirm my self-esteem by showing off my oh-so-precious tone. If the soundman butchers your tone, it's because it was throwing off the mix and deteriorating the sound of the entire performance. That's it; you can't blame someone for doing their job and making the whole greater than the sum of its (sometimes egotistical) parts. If you can't come to terms with that, you shouldn't be working with other people and should just stay at home listening to yourself riff.
Click to expand...

Define "sounds good".
 
#154
Muaguana said:
What's baffling to me is you people seem to think soundmen are just hobos picked up off the street and paid a dime to run a soundboard. Their job is to make things sound good. That's what they are trained to do, that is what they went to school for (the ones who shelled out the money to attend technical schools, that is.) Soundmen are, for the most part, musicians themselves, and to assume they're so dense as to not represent the bass accurately just shows how inept you are. Their job is to represent everyone onstage accurately enough to enhance the performance and make the concert more enjoyable for all attending.

Personally, I would sacrifice my ego and tone if it would make the mix sound better, because it's the music as a whole that's important, not my fears of insecurity and need to reaffirm my self-esteem by showing off my oh-so-precious tone. If the soundman butchers your tone, it's because it was throwing off the mix and deteriorating the sound of the entire performance. That's it; you can't blame someone for doing their job and making the whole greater than the sum of its (sometimes egotistical) parts. If you can't come to terms with that, you shouldn't be working with other people and should just stay at home listening to yourself riff.
Click to expand...

zuokinis said:
Define "sounds good".
Click to expand...

As long as the stage volume from the cabinet doesn't cross the line into interfering with FOH, then any soundman worth his salt and schooling should be able to make either a mic'd cabinet OR a DI signal work (or any combination thereof).
It's not that complicated, unless you're using inferior gear.

I've been a long time proponent of modeler into a DI and just recently started mic'ing my bass cabinet. I've gotten more compliments on the sound of my bass from other musicians, audience members, and soundman than I ever got DI - PLUS the sound in my IEM has come alive. I have more consistency when using effects, and that makes things easier on FOH as well.

JimmyM - oddly enough the reason I went to mic'ing my cabinet is the opposite of your issue with Bowser. I was happy with the VT Bass and pedals DI'd and IEMs. Our lead singer and band director doesn't use IEM's and was missing the sound of the low end on stage. I was asked to bring an amp. It's pointed toward the lead singer and volume is just loud enough that he can hear the cabinet without putting anything else in his wedge.
 
#155
stiles72 said:
What I want:
SVT 3 Pros = XLR line out from back of head
B15N = Mic

What I usually get or am forced to use by Soundmen:
Direct box between my bass and amp/rig.

Having said that... I had a great B15 experience Saturday!

My oldies band played an outdoor show with another group, both using the same soundman and sound system. When I took my B15 onstage, the previous bass player and guitar player were looking over my amp, and said "Nice Reissue!" When I told them it was a '63, they thought I was crazy for gigging with it! Before the soundman had a chance to offer me a DI, I micd it up real quick and had it all plugged into the snake. I was using a P-bass with flats with the tone knob all the way down, and had the Portaflex Gain at about 11:00, Treble at Noon, and Bass at 3:00. On first break, he came up to me and said that he had planned to ask me to use a DI- but went on to say that the micd B15 was one of the sweetest sounding bass rigs he's heard in a long time, and that he was glad he didn't ask me to use the direct box!

So there are some good soundmen after all who do appreciate vintage gear!!!

(Yeah I copied this from another post....)
Click to expand...

So, what mic did you use?
 

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