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line out vs mic

stonewall

stonewall

Jun 14, 2010
915
323
ontario,Canada
#1
im curious why most of us line out or DI box the bass rather than mic ing the bass i find with DI you never get that warmth that you get from your amp......we as players work so hard to get that personal perfect sound to our ears on stage but yet out front it sounds different would it not be easier to mimic my stage sound with a mic.?........in the future im thinking of trying any advice or tips ...for now im going to experiment my line out Post/Pre EQ to hear the diff im thinking post should be more natural sounding???
 
#2
The biggest reason I prefer to go direct is that I can tweak the volume and/or EQ on my amp as needed at any point in the gig without affecting the house mix. In the case of my main band (who runs their own sound from the stage), this is particularly important cause we try to make the FOH mix as much of a "set it and forget it" deal as we can.

And if you think the sound coming out of your amp (i.e., cabinet) is ever going to be replicated 100% accurately in the front-of-house mix, you're dreaming. Most of us would thrilled to get it within 70-75% and even that hardly ever happens unless you've hit the big-time.
 
#5
This is why I like smaller venues with instrumental music--no PA to screw around with. Whether you DI or mic, if you don't have an exclusive sound guy, all bets are off as to what it will sound like in da house. Naturally, most sound guys want to DI to keep the stage volume to a minimum (and don't have to chase down a mic stand that gets knocked over), so they tend to push the DI box over the mic.
 
#9
as a sound man (my steady gig while I get my bass career in line) my policy is the less live mics on stage the better.

Also, the venue I run sound at is pretty big and most bass players still bring amps that could fill the room pretty well, with about half of the house volume coming from the amp the player's tone is replicated very well (also my goal is to replicate all good tones coming from the stage)
 
#10
not this again!! i think some of you guys participate in threads like this just to wind me up! and naturally, i fall for it every time.

for example, jaywa, your comments about us dreaming are so far off the mark it isn't funny, and quite honestly, i resent it. you have no clue how i sound on a gig. how come nobody ever say that to the guitarist but they don't think twice abotu saying it to the bassist?

when i get a soundman who listens to my amp and tries to duplicate my sound in the pa, without fail they nail it. the ONLY times i can't get my amp sound in the pa 100% is when the soundman decides he doesn't like my amp sound. but you see, i go out into the house on soundchecks and (often) during the show to check on the soundman, and when the soundman is worth a crap, i can never tell where my amp ends and the pa begins. and if he's not nailing it, i tell him to duplicate my amp sound. if he still doesn't, the likelihood of him ever working for us again is nil.

second, this business about the fewer live mics the better...well let's pull ALL the mics then. pull the drum mics and use triggers. pull the guitar mic and make him DI, too. and maybe we should install XLR's in our butts for when we sing. that is such a copout. good soundmen make bleed work for them by taking it into consideration when they mix. not that there's much bleed to worry about on a bass mic anyway. the overhead drum mics are WAY more of a factor for bleed, as are the vocal mics. and yet, nobody ever complains about them. but everyone wants to complain about the bass having a mic, and it's more often than not the most benign mic up there.

so this will hopefully be my only post in this thread about it because it's one of the few subjects on here that actually makes me angry. if you want to di, by all means go ahead and di. if you want to run a mic, by all means run a mic. if you want to tell me and others like me who like to use a mic that we're wrong or fooling ourselves, i consider those fighting words because that means you're working against me and trying to prevent me from doing my job to the best of my ability.
 
#12
faulknersj said:
Jimmy, I agree with you man. There are nuances that a DI simply does not pickup like a mic on the amp U are standing next to can. The questuon is...what is the best mic for live bass?
Click to expand...
there are a handful of really good ones...some of my favorites are the ev re-20, the heil pr-40, the sennheiser 421, the beyer m88, and if you're on a budget, a di combined with a 58 or 57 does an excellent job.
 
#13
JimmyM said:
second, this business about the fewer live mics the better...well let's pull ALL the mics then. pull the drum mics and use triggers. pull the guitar mic and make him DI, too. and maybe we should install XLR's in our butts for when we sing. that is such a copout. good soundmen make bleed work for them by taking it into consideration when they mix.
Click to expand...

Dare I say your interpretation of the "fewer live mics the better" standpoint is, shall we say... simplistic? Immature? Taken off the deep end? Totally bat****? Seriously, did a DI box kill your grandmother or something?

Of course no one's saying let's strike all the live mics. The fact is, the less live mics there are, the less bleed needs to be accounted and compensated for in the mix. It just makes the job easier. No one's saying remove every single live mic, just the ones that can be removed without sacrificing the quality of the performance, like electric instruments that can be run through a DI - which don't all sound like crap (believe it or not.) And yes, soundmen do complain about overhead mic bleed - I should know, I do it at every live show I mix for. But I would never think of removing them, like your ridiculous hyperbole implies.

And if you knew anything about stage mic'ing, it's not the bass mic that's the item of most concern, it's the cabinet. It's the sound from the cabinet that bleeds into the other microphones, since bass frequencies aren't easily blocked with plexiglass shields and such.

I actually agree with you that the best sound you get is through a mic, and I'm sure 99.999% of soundmen would likewise concur. And I personally would rather mic the bass and guitar cabs to get those sounds in an ideal situation, but sometimes for very chaotic, poorly equipped (or poorly paying) shows on very small stages, going DI just simplifies things.
 
#14
Out of those mics, which would u consider most transparent? I switch between different neck and bridge pickup blends on my 70's jazz depending on the tune, and I hate how that can come out of the front of the house. It can make me sound like an untamed beast sometimes, especially in the low fequency ranges, but man, if I give em what I'm hearing out of my cab, then I'm giving them what I want to give them. I have never worked with a producer worth a %#$} that didn't mic (and DI) a bass in the studio.
 
#15
faulknersj said:
Out of those mics, which would u consider most transparent? I switch between different neck and bridge pickup blends on my 70's jazz depending on the tune, and I hate how that can come out of the front of the house. It can make me sound like an untamed beast sometimes, especially in the low fequency ranges, but man, if I give em what I'm hearing out of my cab, then I'm giving them what I want to give them. I have never worked with a producer worth a %#$} that didn't mic (and DI) a bass in the studio.
Click to expand...
well the re 20 is known for being a near flat mic. and if you back off the cab with the pr40 3-4 inches, it sounds a lot like the re 20. but i'd say probably the re 20 is what you're looking for.
 
#16
See, that's the thing. When I step in front of a crowd and play with my band, I am 100% more concerned with how my tone is being articulated than making life easy for a soundman. Besides taking pride in my sound (and spending years acheiving it thru vasts quantities of research + trial and error), I am far more concerned with the audience having a killer experience than the soundman having an easy one. My tone is my voice. All the little nuances are my accent. Jimmy is right man..the only way to make sure soundmen do your voice justice consistently is to Mic up.
 
#18
Muaguana said:
Dare I say your interpretation of the "fewer live mics the better" standpoint is, shall we say... simplistic? Immature? Taken off the deep end? Totally bat****? Seriously, did a DI box kill your grandmother or something?

Of course no one's saying let's strike all the live mics. The fact is, the less live mics there are, the less bleed needs to be accounted and compensated for in the mix. It just makes the job easier. No one's saying remove every single live mic, just the ones that can be removed without sacrificing the quality of the performance, like electric instruments that can be run through a DI - which don't all sound like crap (believe it or not.) And yes, soundmen do complain about overhead mic bleed - I should know, I do it at every live show I mix for. But I would never think of removing them, like your ridiculous hyperbole implies.

And if you knew anything about stage mic'ing, it's not the bass mic that's the item of most concern, it's the cabinet. It's the sound from the cabinet that bleeds into the other microphones, since bass frequencies aren't easily blocked with plexiglass shields and such.

I actually agree with you that the best sound you get is through a mic, and I'm sure 99.999% of soundmen would likewise concur. And I personally would rather mic the bass and guitar cabs to get those sounds in an ideal situation, but sometimes for very chaotic, poorly equipped (or poorly paying) shows on very small stages, going DI just simplifies things.
Click to expand...
hey pal, i'm one of the most knowledgeable people on this here talkbass. so here's the bottom line...do not talk down to me. if you want to talk sound, then talk sound. but i'm not going to dignify your nasty comments and futile attempt to make me look like a dumbass with a thoughtful reply.
 
#19
faulknersj said:
See, that's the thing. When I step in front of a crowd and play with my band, I am 100% more concerned with how my tone is being articulated than making life easy for a soundman. Besides taking pride in my sound (and spending years acheiving it thru vasts quantities of research + trial and error), I am far more concerned with the audience having a killer experience than the soundman having an easy one. My tone is my voice. All the little nuances are my accent. Jimmy is right man..the only way to make sure soundmen do your voice justice consistently is to Mic up.
Click to expand...
right on, dude. when a soundman tells me i need to make his job easier, i get really angry. nobody makes my job any easier. if the soundman wants me to make his job easier, then here's what needs to happen...he needs to get out of my way and let me do what i do.
 
#20
No matter what signal you give to a soundman, unless he understands what your sound is and how it fits in with the sound of the band, you can still end up sounding like crap or like another bassist entirely.

if you've EQ'ed your amp sound to a certain cab that sound will probably be radically different coming out of a few 18" subs, to begin with.

So if you do use a mic you will still need the soundguy on board and in your camp, and it's no insurance you will get a decent tone or one that resembles that coming out of your rig.

None of this intended as argument, just my limited experience with PAs and soundmen, mics and DIs.

Now I tend to use a VT pedal to tailor the DI feed, or I use a straight DI and blend with a Shure 57 when I use my SVT.
 

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