line out vs mic

[JimmyM]

My PA is plenty loud. I wouldn't classify a Yamaha EMX 512sc as "Not a real PA". It's the bass rig that I'd like to be a little louder. ( I could have swore I said that) FWIW, I COULD hear myself. My band is not THAT loud. It was right on the edge though and I had it full up ( again, I refer to my bass rig, NOT the PA). Since I can't currently afford a bigger rig, I thought maybe going out of the SansAmp to the PA would be a possibility.

No need to be condescending, arrogant and insulting friend. We can't all be super cool guys with "Real" PAs.

floyd, i think you underestimate how loud you are, bro. if a 1000w rig isn't getting it done for you, i have no idea what to tell you because that's a pretty insane rig, unless of course you're using tiny cabs. if you are using tiny cabs, i highly recommend upsizing.

about the pa, you are almost always better off clustering the subs, either in the middle or off to one side if the middle's impossible. so if you do add a sub, you should keep them together. but i doubt it will help you with your problem. the best thing you can do is everyone in the band turn down and let the pa do the work.

 

[JimmyM]

That "working for us" phrase is an important distinction and I'm glad Jimmy specified that. If the soundman is being paid out of the band's pocket, then of course it's his job to make the band sound however they want -- and it is also the band's prerogative to replace him at the point he's not doing that to their satisfaction for whatever reason.

OTOH if you're on a festival or some other multi-band venue and there is one FOH engineer being paid by the promoter to mix all bands, he's only gonna take a certain amount of direction from any band... and after that it's "yeah sure, you bet," while he goes on doing whatever he wants and thinks sounds best.

well obviously fortunately, i'm in a position where i do get to dictate what i want almost all the time. i very rarely have to, though, because the vast majority of soundmen we work with are highly competent and fully aware of our needs, and if they're not, they usually listen to us and work with us. but yeah, at a multi-band gig at a festival or in a bar, you're pretty much at their mercy. and that's why if you're smart, you take advantage of what modern technology has to offer and plug your bass into a vt pedal and THEN the di

btw, i should mention that when i'm on the road, i often have to suck it up and use the di because of the varying quality of bass cabs i get on the road. and you bet your ass i work that vt pedal!

 

[faulknersj]

Same situation here for my 9 - 12 piece band. It doesn't seem like a bass mic would be an issue. Its always the vocal mics that cause feedback problems. Is the bass mic the 'straw that broke the camels back' so to speak?

 

[Floyd Eye]

floyd, i think you underestimate how loud you are, bro. if a 1000w rig isn't getting it done for you, i have no idea what to tell you because that's a pretty insane rig, unless of course you're using tiny cabs. if you are using tiny cabs, i highly recommend upsizing.

about the pa, except you are almost always better off clustering the subs, either in the middle or off to one side if the middle's impossible. so if you do add a sub, you should keep them together. but i doubt it will help you with your problem. the best thing you can do is everyone in the band turn down and let the pa do the work.

Thanks for the tip on the subs.

It is quite possible that I'm just not used to playing outside and I did underestimate how loud I was, because on the recordings you can hear me just fine. I use a 4X10 and a 1X18. Indoors I can be ear bleeding loud if I turn it up. Usually my bass stays on 4 or 5. At this party I was around 8 or 9 all day.


So I would likely not benefit much from running my rig through the PA. OK, thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

 

[faulknersj]

As a reference, when playing live my 500 watt Markbass LMK's master volume is at 1 1/2 thru a 2x12 cab. This is with a c piece band. We are very conscious of stage volume and have learned to listen to one another. When everyone plays at a lower stage volume, everyone can hear each other without a.struggle. Louder is usually not better, but cleaner almost always is.

 

[faulknersj]

As a reference, when playing live my 500 watt Markbass LMK's master volume is at 1 1/2 thru a 2x12 cab. This is with a 9 piece band. We are very conscious of stage volume and have learned to listen to one another. When everyone plays at a lower stage volume, everyone can hear each other without a.struggle. Louder is usually not better, but clean and controlled almost always is.

 

[fokof]

Personally, I would sacrifice my ego and tone if it would make the mix sound better, because it's the music as a whole that's important, not my fears of insecurity and need to reaffirm my self-esteem by showing off my oh-so-precious tone. If the soundman butchers your tone, it's because it was throwing off the mix and deteriorating the sound of the entire performance. That's it; you can't blame someone for doing their job and making the whole greater than the sum of its (sometimes egotistical) parts. If you can't come to terms with that, you shouldn't be working with other people and should just stay at home listening to yourself riff.

Wow..... couldn't have said it better.
Possible to make that a sticky , please ?

Being a "control freak" is a disease.

 

[JimmyM]

Wow..... couldn't have said it better.
Possible to make that a sticky , please ?

Being a "control freak" is a disease.

what a bunch of crap. you and this other blowhard assume that because i am a control freak that all i care about is how my bass sounds without any regard for the rest of the instruments. so let's make this clear...i care about how my bass sounds IN RELATION TO THE REST OF THE INSTRUMENTS AND IN THE CONTEXT OF THE MUSIC WE'RE PLAYING. to assume anything else is to be 100% dead wrong.

so being a control freak is bad, eh? well considering that if i'm not a control freak, the soundman who doesn't buy into our line of thought will give me a sound that i don't like with way too much treble about 5k, or they'll scoop it because the soundman's ideal bass tone is marcus miller (love marcus but have zero desire to have his tone), and they will often mix the bass drum way too loud for the type of music we do, i'd say being a control freak is a damn good thing. besides, what is being a bigger control freak than a soundman who puts his version of "good sound" above the band's version? sorry it doesn't meet with your approval, but on my stage, i own it. period. those who have a problem with that need not work with us.

see, we can't ever have a normal discussion about this. for some reason you feel the need to tweak me every time. i don't get it.

 

[modulusman]

i find it really ironic and funny you accuse me of thinking too highly of myself

anyway, i read the whole article, i did. good one with a lot of great info. now let's assume that i play gigs where the pa is being challenged...it rarely happens, but let's assume that it is...answer me this...

on my band's stage, there are 5 vocal mics, a sax mic, a guitar amp mic, anywhere from 2 to 7 drum mics, and a bass amp mic. what possible positive benefit could come from pulling my mic and giving me a di when there are so many other live mics onstage? pulling my amp mic is a drop in the bucket, yet you make it sound like the bass mic is solely responsible for screwing the pooch. come on, let's be realistic here...an extra mic on the bass means nothing at all to the overall picture.

I am assuming that most of the gigs you play have a decent PA. If so then you are right it doesn't apply in your situation. Alot of the posters on here are working with POS PAs that they don't know how to set-up and run properly so for them it could be a problem. I was just pointing out that there is a good reason for running direct.

 

[modulusman]

My PA is plenty loud. I wouldn't classify a Yamaha EMX 512sc as "Not a real PA". It's the bass rig that I'd like to be a little louder. ( I could have swore I said that) FWIW, I COULD hear myself. My band is not THAT loud. It was right on the edge though and I had it full up ( again, I refer to my bass rig, NOT the PA). Since I can't currently afford a bigger rig, I thought maybe going out of the SansAmp to the PA would be a possibility.

No need to be condescending, arrogant and insulting friend. We can't all be super cool guys with "Real" PAs.

Your Yamaha is not a "Real PA'" for playing outside unless it is for a small audience. You would need subwoofers.

 

[Floyd Eye]

Your Yamaha is not a "Real PA'" for playing outside unless it is for a small audience. You would need subwoofers.

You mean like the one I have running from the Main (mono) out on my PA into a 500 watt bass amp hooked to a 2x15 cab?

No we're not playing to huge audiences. No I can't afford a gaggle of power amps, tops, bottoms, horns, mixing board, etc..., but the PA I have and the sub system I am using is pretty damn effective for a 3 piece cover band.

 

[JayAmel]

so being a control freak is bad, eh? well considering that if i'm not a control freak, the soundman who doesn't buy into our line of thought will give me a sound that i don't like with way too much treble about 5k, or they'll scoop it because the soundman's ideal bass tone is marcus miller (love marcus but have zero desire to have his tone), and they will often mix the bass drum way too loud for the type of music we do, i'd say being a control freak is a damn good thing. besides, what is being a bigger control freak than a soundman who puts his version of "good sound" above the band's version? sorry it doesn't meet with your approval, but on my stage, i own it. period. those who have a problem with that need not work with us.

+1.

2 years ago, we were doing the "general soundcheck" with the band (same conditions as live, but no audience), and when I tried to go to hear how the sound was on the FOH, the soundman told me "don't care about it". I didn't let him intimidate me, especially because I think that the bass & bass drum sound cohesion is as important for the groove than their rhythm cohesion is. The sound was awful on the FOH, it sounded like the bass was 10 miles "above" the bass drum. After some kind of verbal dispute, we finally went back to a good situation (especially when the soundman started over by resetting the EQ on the bass track on his Yamaha digital mixer).

Unfortunately, I'm used to that. Many times, when I ask for a couple of minutes, time to adjust bass tone to bass drum tone, some people look at me as if I were a Martian.

It's not a matter of ego or any other crap like that : just how good the music has to sound.

 

[faulknersj]

Jimmy, that was spot on dude! Couldn't have said it better myself. Rare indeed is a sound man that knows how to dial in oldies, 60's, 70's. Can we all agree that 90% of the soundmen out there are rock dudes? I am guessing that those defending the unwavering committment of soundmen to the greater good of the mix 'out front' are also rock guys. If not, please correct me. Jimmy's perspective, and my perspective is born of experiences with soundmen that don't understand the sound of the music we play.its just that simple. Just like Jimmy said, it is not about MY BASS, but about the way that all of the musical components work TOGETHER. When u make a living off of the music you play, it doesn't hurt to adopt a 'no detail is to small mentality. I would be really curious how you would feel if I came to town and mixed your rock band like I would mix an old school funk, and soul band? I can assure you, you wouldn't like it.

 

[JayAmel]

I'm with you too, Faulknersj. I have worked with dozens of soundmen, but if I name those who can adapt themselves to the music style that is played and who know how to make the bass and bass-drum sound together, well I'm not sure I'll be able to name more than 3.

 

[faulknersj]

Right on! The point is, don't be afraid to mic up if that is what u think will give u and your band the best results.

 

[fokof]

It's not a matter of ego or any other crap like that : just how good the music has to sound.

What a lot of people here don't get is that when you feed a signal to the FOH , be it DI or Mike , what you give is your tone.
So any soundman has to work with what you give them.
You know the old saying ; " Sh*t in , Sh*t out"

There is not a lot of "space" to get "Your tone" in a mix. You have to consider that there are other instrument in the Bass spectrum frequency. So if you take half an hour to go in front and and get your big/fat /full range "tone" , how does the soundman fit the rest of the band in that mix ? Around your tone ?

What I say and what I always said ;
If you are a professional , and you are working with other professionals ,let them do their job as they let you do yours.
Hire your own soundman , then you'll be sure he'll do what you tell him to.

As a bass player , no soundman ever told me what note to play.

 

[modulusman]

You mean like the one I have running from the Main (mono) out on my PA into a 500 watt bass amp hooked to a 2x15 cab?

No we're not playing to huge audiences. No I can't afford a gaggle of power amps, tops, bottoms, horns, mixing board, etc..., but the PA I have and the sub system I am using is pretty damn effective for a 3 piece cover band.

So what are you using for a crossover? For that matter what is your 2-15 cab and main PA speakers? As far as I can tell you have a bunch of gear patched together that is not right for the application. If you think it sounds good then I guess that is all that matters but i bet it doesn't.

 

[JayAmel]

What a lot of people here don't get is that when you feed a signal to the FOH , be it DI or Mike , what you give is your tone.

Exactly ! That's why the tone I send to the soundman is as close as possible to what it should finally be (considering, though, that FOH speakers give a different colour than, say, a bass cab or stage monitor).

Normally, if the soundman takes my tone, he just has to adapt it to THE ROOM (or most generally the place where the venue happens).

In the case I told, the guy had tweaked the EQ settings all ways, and the tone was dumb. When resetting all EQ settings for the bass, that finally sounded very close to what it should.

 

[Floyd Eye]

So what are you using for a crossover? For that matter what is your 2-15 cab and main PA speakers? As far as I can tell you have a bunch of gear patched together that is not right for the application. If you think it sounds good then I guess that is all that matters but i bet it doesn't.

No crossover. I am forced to use EQ. Current mains are low budget 12s loaded with Eminence speakers. Same with the monitors. The 15s are Peavey Black Widows. It sounds decent, considering that's what we can afford. No one complains about the sound.

Probably crap compared to your set-up, but like I said, it's all we can afford right now and it works for what we do. I guess I was hoping to get some advice on how to do better with what we have. Instead I got people bragging about how cool their "Real" gear is and trying to make me feel like a chump because I can't afford a nice system. Fail on my part. No big deal. Band is still tight and people dig hearing us.

 

[JimmyM]

What a lot of people here don't get is that when you feed a signal to the FOH , be it DI or Mike , what you give is your tone.
So any soundman has to work with what you give them.
You know the old saying ; " Sh*t in , Sh*t out"

There is not a lot of "space" to get "Your tone" in a mix. You have to consider that there are other instrument in the Bass spectrum frequency. So if you take half an hour to go in front and and get your big/fat /full range "tone" , how does the soundman fit the rest of the band in that mix ? Around your tone ?

What I say and what I always said ;
If you are a professional , and you are working with other professionals ,let them do their job as they let you do yours.
Hire your own soundman , then you'll be sure he'll do what you tell him to.

As a bass player , no soundman ever told me what note to play.

here is a list of "orders" i have gotten from soundmen in lieu of telling us what notes to play:

--turn down
--change your tone
--turn your amp away from the audience
--use my DI and not your DI or your mic
--don't use your effects

so let's not sit here and pretend that many soundmen don't micromanage bands to make their job easier. it happens just as much if not more than it happens that i tell a soundman about what i want in the pa.

and stop with the "your tone" strawman. i have already told you that it's about the band sound, not my sound first and the band second. it just so happens that if they duplicate my sound in the pa it almost always works out well for the mix. and if it doesn't, i don't know any soundmen who are shy about letting me know, and if i think they're right, i adjust accordingly.