Stick_Player
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I have NO lines on my DBs. But, I would NOT play an electric bass without them (my fretless electrics ARE lined).
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Lined fretless: Make me feel better please!
- Thread starter Fletz
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Bryan R. Tyler
TalkBass: Usurping My Practice Time Since 2002
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Oh it's still present at TB, just thankfully not in this thread yet. It's funny how the folks who say you don't need them or shouldn't look at them are never pros known for their fretless work.
The best are the guys who say you should only use your ears. I always have visions of their audiences recoiling as they play every note out of tune then try to slide it into proper pitch...
Playing fretless electric bass is hard enough without adding more challenges for me. I'll use anything to get my hands in the right place to play the right note on the first try- my ears, muscle memory, lines, side dots, occasional harmonics and open strings to compare pitch to, etc. I'd use a scratch and sniff fingerboard that gave off stronger smells the more you're in tune if they had them.
I've said it before- if you can play in tune, then no matter how you're doing it, you're doing it right.
I recommend putting on dark sunglasses and always looking at the ceiling while you're playing. Isn't that what Stevie Wonder does?: he's just showing off he can play piano without seeing the difference between white and black keys.
I'm normaly in the no-lines camp, mainly because they're mostly no use if you're standing on a stage. But that should not stop you in any way.
I'm normaly in the no-lines camp, mainly because they're mostly no use if you're standing on a stage. But that should not stop you in any way.
A lined fretless fingerboard is just like a coloring book. It's OK to color outside the lines.
My wife has big feet. The other morning, she asked me, "Do these shoes make my feet look big?"
My answer was, "I'd rather have a small give-a-s*** than small feet."
That's pretty much the answer to all kinds of life's situations.
My answer was, "I'd rather have a small give-a-s*** than small feet."
That's pretty much the answer to all kinds of life's situations.
I should add that the only unlined instrument I have is a wall stud with weed-whacker line strings, a binder clip bridge, and piezo pickup. (The knots and mill stamps do provide some visual references however.)
To me the age-old debate is misleading, as fretlines offer minimal help in my experience. Finger-placement intonation, according to visual fretline-finger relationships, changes across the fretboard. For example, according to one bass intonation method (Willis), intonation occurs after the fretline near the nut; moving up the neck, intonation occurs on the fretline; moving further up the neck, intonation occurs centered between fretlines. Given this, if one chooses to believe that intonation always occurs on or before the fretline, they will be playing out of tune often, unless they limit play to one area of the neck, say a within a 4-whole step range.
Next, visual observation of intonation of this phenomenon adds a layer of brain processing that could detract from music flow. Fretlines or not, ear recognition of intonation should occur first and last. How it works for me? I hear that my intonation is off, say while playing a perfect fifth dyad that is moving up and down the neck. Is it easier to adjust visually, or adjust according to ear?
To adjust visually: 1) I hear that intonation is off. 2) I look at the fingerboard to determine why, based on relationship of finger placement to fretline. 3) I adjust finger relation to fretline, hoping to achieve intonation. 4) My ear judges whether intonation is achieved. 5) If intonation is not achieved, go back to step 2. By the time this activity occurs, a lot of music has probably passed by.
To adjust by ear: 1) I hear that intonation is off. 2) I adjust fingers to achieve intonation.
In the intonation debate, which do you prefer? 4 or more steps, or 1 or 2 steps (1 step if your intonation is right from the start). Which is more efficient and practical?
Assuming that one is a proponent of lines, what happens on a dark stage when lines are not visible? In a sight-reading situation, what happens when the music is so fast, that you cannot move your eyes from the chart to look at fretlines? In a performance situation, how does it look when the performer is staring at fretlines, instead of interacting with audience and fellow musicians? What happens if instrument standard tuning changes during a song/performance (one string becomes slightly flat, one slightly sharp)? How do you reconcile this based on visual fretline reference?
I am not against fretlines. I have basses with and without them. However, fretlines don't make my playing or intonation better. For me, intonation is always in the ear of the beholder/player, fretlines or not.
Next, visual observation of intonation of this phenomenon adds a layer of brain processing that could detract from music flow. Fretlines or not, ear recognition of intonation should occur first and last. How it works for me? I hear that my intonation is off, say while playing a perfect fifth dyad that is moving up and down the neck. Is it easier to adjust visually, or adjust according to ear?
To adjust visually: 1) I hear that intonation is off. 2) I look at the fingerboard to determine why, based on relationship of finger placement to fretline. 3) I adjust finger relation to fretline, hoping to achieve intonation. 4) My ear judges whether intonation is achieved. 5) If intonation is not achieved, go back to step 2. By the time this activity occurs, a lot of music has probably passed by.
To adjust by ear: 1) I hear that intonation is off. 2) I adjust fingers to achieve intonation.
In the intonation debate, which do you prefer? 4 or more steps, or 1 or 2 steps (1 step if your intonation is right from the start). Which is more efficient and practical?
Assuming that one is a proponent of lines, what happens on a dark stage when lines are not visible? In a sight-reading situation, what happens when the music is so fast, that you cannot move your eyes from the chart to look at fretlines? In a performance situation, how does it look when the performer is staring at fretlines, instead of interacting with audience and fellow musicians? What happens if instrument standard tuning changes during a song/performance (one string becomes slightly flat, one slightly sharp)? How do you reconcile this based on visual fretline reference?
I am not against fretlines. I have basses with and without them. However, fretlines don't make my playing or intonation better. For me, intonation is always in the ear of the beholder/player, fretlines or not.
Not one of my Fretless basses has lines, not one. I also have 0 Fretless basses. However I have been casually looking for a nice one to get started. It will have lines.
There will always be "those" people out there that think you cant play bass without a Fretless unlined Fodera and Hand built boutique Amp and cab from a Craftsman who made his own tubes and electronics by hand and was then killed so the amp could never be replicated. Anything short of that and they will belittle you....F#@& those guys
The audience will never care, At most they will wonder if the other guiltar player would have broke two strings if he didnt keep poking and pulling on them
There will always be "those" people out there that think you cant play bass without a Fretless unlined Fodera and Hand built boutique Amp and cab from a Craftsman who made his own tubes and electronics by hand and was then killed so the amp could never be replicated. Anything short of that and they will belittle you....F#@& those guys
The audience will never care, At most they will wonder if the other guiltar player would have broke two strings if he didnt keep poking and pulling on them
Some insecure people are always looking for a way to feel better about themselves. A lot of them do it by trying to make other people feel worse about themselves. I had a beautiful unlined 5 string musicman that I had to sell because I couldn't play it in tune. There, I said it and I still feel good about myself. 
Priority #1: Lay down the funk. Once you do that no one will care about the look.
Personally I would just love to see someone turn up at a gig with a Hannah Montana bass* and lay down the meanest funk you've ever heard.
* Don't waste your time, I've already checked, they don't exist :-(
Personally I would just love to see someone turn up at a gig with a Hannah Montana bass* and lay down the meanest funk you've ever heard.
* Don't waste your time, I've already checked, they don't exist :-(
It's hard to imagine anyone playing with an amp that has lines, numbers, indents -- heck, anything that might tell a player where the control knobs are pointed. Clipping indicator lights? Meh. It's particularly disappointing when an amp's volume and EQ knobs include a hard stop turning to the left or right ... such an artificial way of knowing the range of motion. Bassists should know better than that. "Use your ears" will always be the correct mantra!
I have had both. I play upright. I just ordered a new Roscoe fretless - lined. I don't know how much I use/depend on them as it doesn't take too long to get used to playing and adjusting pitch. I'm fine with lines. I'm fine if you don't have lines.
Make me feel better...Jimmy Haslip, one of the finest players out there, played a lined fretless for years. I don't think anyone gave a crap. He's a monster.
Make me feel better...Jimmy Haslip, one of the finest players out there, played a lined fretless for years. I don't think anyone gave a crap. He's a monster.
A lot of people tend to compare upright bass to electric bass in regards to having lines. The upright bass is fretless and doesn't have lines so does it stand to reason an electric bass also shouldn't have lines? NOPE! Here's why:
1) The upright bass is built with 'anchor points' in mind. Half and first positions are easy enough. With your index finger anchored on first position A on the G string your pinky will naturally fall on B. Shift up so your index is on C and you're naturally spanning C to D. On basses with a D neck the D on the G string will naturally occur at the point where the neck meets the body. It is very very natural to shift to the D by 'feel.' The electric bass has no such system. It is just a long plank of wood. There are no tactile reference points on an electric bass.
2) Plenty of people use markings, dots, etc. on upright bass. "Probably just kids or people learning!" you say? Nope!
See the pencil mark around the high D? This is one of the best bassists in the world.
What's this? DOTS on Edgar Meyer's fingerboard!
1) The upright bass is built with 'anchor points' in mind. Half and first positions are easy enough. With your index finger anchored on first position A on the G string your pinky will naturally fall on B. Shift up so your index is on C and you're naturally spanning C to D. On basses with a D neck the D on the G string will naturally occur at the point where the neck meets the body. It is very very natural to shift to the D by 'feel.' The electric bass has no such system. It is just a long plank of wood. There are no tactile reference points on an electric bass.
2) Plenty of people use markings, dots, etc. on upright bass. "Probably just kids or people learning!" you say? Nope!
See the pencil mark around the high D? This is one of the best bassists in the world.
What's this? DOTS on Edgar Meyer's fingerboard!
