Lined fretless: Make me feel better please!

[Gougedeye]

How about this? "You play fretless? Dude, you're awesome!" I am most sincere about that sentiment,btw.

 

[Matthijs]

A lot of people tend to compare upright bass to electric bass in regards to having lines. The upright bass is fretless and doesn't have lines so does it stand to reason an electric bass also shouldn't have lines? NOPE! Here's why:

1) The upright bass is built with 'anchor points' in mind. Half and first positions are easy enough. With your index finger anchored on first position A on the G string your pinky will naturally fall on B. Shift up so your index is on C and you're naturally spanning C to D. On basses with a D neck the D on the G string will naturally occur at the point where the neck meets the body. It is very very natural to shift to the D by 'feel.' The electric bass has no such system. It is just a long plank of wood. There are no tactile reference points on an electric bass.

2) Plenty of people use markings, dots, etc. on upright bass. "Probably just kids or people learning!" you say? Nope!

See the pencil mark around the high D? This is one of the best bassists in the world.


What's this? DOTS on Edgar Meyer's fingerboard!

Actually I tend to benefit more from fretboardmarkings on my DB, but that's because (as in the video's you linked) with DB my nose is touching the fingerboard. So I can actually see them. With fretless bass, side dots (or those little glow in the dark side 'fret-markings' someone posted earlier in this thread) are a lot more usefull. There's nothing bad in having them, I just think there's also not much to gain imho.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

To adjust visually: 1) I hear that intonation is off. 2) I look at the fingerboard to determine why, based on relationship of finger placement to fretline. 3) I adjust finger relation to fretline, hoping to achieve intonation. 4) My ear judges whether intonation is achieved. 5) If intonation is not achieved, go back to step 2. By the time this activity occurs, a lot of music has probably passed by.

To adjust by ear: 1) I hear that intonation is off. 2) I adjust fingers to achieve intonation.

In the intonation debate, which do you prefer? 4 or more steps, or 1 or 2 steps (1 step if your intonation is right from the start). Which is more efficient and practical?

When you pet a dog for the first time, you discover that if you pet too close to his butt, your hand will smell like poop. When you go to pet him again, do you forget and pet too close to his butt again?
You remember where to put your hands after maybe an hour of playing. Keep your bass in tune and it'll stay that way.

The lines let you put your hands in the proper intonation point before you play a note. You can't do that by ear alone. That's why people use lines, dots, DBers use knots and wood grain, hand position, etc. People don't use these things because they're a hinderence and make playing in tune quickly harder. Quite the opposite.

Assuming that one is a proponent of lines, what happens on a dark stage when lines are not visible? In a sight-reading situation, what happens when the music is so fast, that you cannot move your eyes from the chart to look at fretlines? In a performance situation, how does it look when the performer is staring at fretlines, instead of interacting with audience and fellow musicians? What happens if instrument standard tuning changes during a song/performance (one string becomes slightly flat, one slightly sharp)? How do you reconcile this based on visual fretline reference?

That's the age-old assumption that using lines means you cannot possibly look away from them. It's a logical fallacy. It's like saying that the guidelines in the center of a street will cause more accidents because people will stare at them for guidance so much that they won't be able to look away from them. It's as silly as saying you shouldn't trust your ear for intonation ever because the bad sound/EQing/volume in a venue might make pitch detection too hard or your detection might be thrown because you are sick and your ear gets off, all of which can happen. Both examples just go to show that you sometimes cannot rely on only one thing, and it's best to use every tool you have at your disposal.

 

[pnchad]

To me the age-old debate is misleading, as fretlines offer minimal help in my experience. Finger-placement intonation, according to visual fretline-finger relationships, changes across the fretboard. For example, according to one bass intonation method (Willis), intonation occurs after the fretline near the nut; moving up the neck, intonation occurs on the fretline; moving further up the neck, intonation occurs centered between fretlines. Given this, if one chooses to believe that intonation always occurs on or before the fretline, they will be playing out of tune often, unless they limit play to one area of the neck, say a within a 4-whole step range.

Next, visual observation of intonation of this phenomenon adds a layer of brain processing that could detract from music flow. Fretlines or not, ear recognition of intonation should occur first and last. How it works for me? I hear that my intonation is off, say while playing a perfect fifth dyad that is moving up and down the neck. Is it easier to adjust visually, or adjust according to ear?

To adjust visually: 1) I hear that intonation is off. 2) I look at the fingerboard to determine why, based on relationship of finger placement to fretline. 3) I adjust finger relation to fretline, hoping to achieve intonation. 4) My ear judges whether intonation is achieved. 5) If intonation is not achieved, go back to step 2. By the time this activity occurs, a lot of music has probably passed by.

To adjust by ear: 1) I hear that intonation is off. 2) I adjust fingers to achieve intonation.

In the intonation debate, which do you prefer? 4 or more steps, or 1 or 2 steps (1 step if your intonation is right from the start). Which is more efficient and practical?

Assuming that one is a proponent of lines, what happens on a dark stage when lines are not visible? In a sight-reading situation, what happens when the music is so fast, that you cannot move your eyes from the chart to look at fretlines? In a performance situation, how does it look when the performer is staring at fretlines, instead of interacting with audience and fellow musicians? What happens if instrument standard tuning changes during a song/performance (one string becomes slightly flat, one slightly sharp)? How do you reconcile this based on visual fretline reference?

I am not against fretlines. I have basses with and without them. However, fretlines don't make my playing or intonation better. For me, intonation is always in the ear of the beholder/player, fretlines or not.

that's it!
Please provide the exact physical address of the current location of these contraband instruments. You clearly don't respect the rules of fretlessville and these mutant tools must be confiscated immediately and forwarded to my home for safe keeping.

 

[MasterMonkeyMan]

 

[phangtonpower]

Unlined fretless = approximate intonation
Lined fretless = accurate intonation

Feel good

How true is this? My fretless bass is converted from fretted, so don't know if the lines are as accurate as a bass that is specifically made to be fretless. I've intonated it to be in tune open and at the 12 fret line, but when I play and actually look and play at the lines, sometimes it doesn't sound right. When I play and trust my ears and then look, my fingers are always a little off the line.

 

[Imaginary Pony]

There will always be "those" people out there that think you cant play bass without a Fretless unlined Fodera and Hand built boutique Amp and cab from a Craftsman who made his own tubes and electronics by hand and was then killed so the amp could never be replicated.
,

You mean this isn't true?

 

[buldog5151bass]

If you like it - play it. 'Nuff said.

 

[Nephilymbass]

Personally for me i prefer lined and don't care what it looks like. To me fretless is about the tone not the look.

 

[lfmn16]

To me the age-old debate is misleading, as fretlines offer minimal help in my experience.

Many of us have a much different experience. The biggest difference I see is that no one is telling people who play an unlined fretless that they are wrong. It's always the other way around.

 

[MonetBass]

How true is this? My fretless bass is converted from fretted, so don't know if the lines are as accurate as a bass that is specifically made to be fretless. I've intonated it to be in tune open and at the 12 fret line, but when I play and actually look and play at the lines, sometimes it doesn't sound right. When I play and trust my ears and then look, my fingers are always a little off the line.

That's because you need to intonate it with the 1st harmonic (12th 'fret') and the 12th 'fret'. Using the open string will typically make it a little off.

 

[jim777]

Many of us have a much different experience. The biggest difference I see is that no one is telling people who play an unlined fretless that they are wrong. It's always the other way around.

Like JimmyM said earlier, I think it is getting better. At the end of the day a lined fretless likely gives a new fretless player a sense that it isn't a terribly difficult change to make, which in itself encourages more players to try fretless. And try fretless, and possibly stick with fretless (and fretless is just more fun, that's not really a question) Imagine how cool it would be if every manufacturer offered every one of their basses in both fretless and left handed as well? No one is likely to wake up tomorrow and decide to try playing lefty, but for those who try fretless isn't it in all out best interests if they decide to stick with it? We can't really do much of anything for the lefties unfortunately (sorry southpaws!) but we should encourage players to try fretless as often as we can, and support whatever makes that transition easier.

 

[Rich Terry]

The more lines the better!!

Oh that was cocaine, SORRY.

Just close your eyes.

 

[ArtechnikA]

Gilmourisgod said: ↑
Unlined fretless = approximate intonation
Lined fretless = accurate intonation

How true is this?

Not very.

...I've intonated it to be in tune open and at the 12 fret line, but when I play and actually look and play at the lines, sometimes it doesn't sound right. When I play and trust my ears and then look, my fingers are always a little off the line.

Yes, you need to compare the 12th fret harmonic with the 12th stop note.
But even when you do, you will find that the relationship between the line and the correct pitch varies over the length of the fingerboard.
(This is well documented, check out Gary Willis' "101 Bass Tips: Stuff All the Pros Know and Use" for example.)
No one worries about this on a fretted bass because the frets are where they are, they aren't moving, and we just accept tiny intonation variations.
So sometimes (more accurately, in some places) the correct pitch is above the line, some places below the line, some places on the line.
You have to learn this and you will compensate as you play. When setting intonation you have a little bit of adjustment room over what part of the board you want to be most accurate i.e. - compares best between line and pitch. Most important to make sure it's consistent from string to string.

I have my preference but I don't care what you like.

 

[Feral Feline]

Line 'em up, knock 'em dead.

BOTTOM LINE:
Whether you play an unlined fretless or lined fretless – The only lines you should be worrying about are your bass lines.

Some people fret less when they play lined boards, so be it. I could not care less about lined or unlined. I've got one bass that will be a lined fretless once I yank out the frets, I've got my line-less fretless double-a** basses and a borrowed lined fretless U-bass that I really should return to its owner, but it's been too much fun and he hasn't asked for it back... yet. I like the look of unlined and so I'll have that, but as mentioned I'll have lines, too (just none of those '80s lines CanadaNeal posted).

 

[Slevage]

Jaco didn't need visual references-------but he had them.

 

[Rich Terry]

It's going to be OK, Do you feel better now?

I'll send you a bill for the therapy session.

 

[Freddels]

I have both so it doesn't matter to me. I like the blank look of an unlined board but it' just aesthetics.
A few years ago, I played with a guitarist and I used a lined fretless. After playing for about 2 hours, he said "sometimes I could swear you're playing a fretless." I took that as a compliment.

 

[warrplayer]

Nothing oozes quality like a nice ebony fretboard with maple lines. Or maybe abalone! Naw, let's go with 18 karet gold! Blank fretboard? Screams luthier laziness!

 

[Rich Terry]

I l

Nothing oozes quality like a nice ebony fretboard with maple lines. Or maybe abalone! Naw, let's go with 18 karet gold! Blank fretboard? Screams luthier laziness!

I like the way you think. The Abalone sounds nice.