Live Bass - Use A Stage Amp With IEM?

[SteveC]

I guess that the FOH sound is more important than myself or the rest of the band "feeling" the bass. Sure, we'd love if the space was large enough (it's not a super church) to handle a bass cab thumping up the stage so we could all feel it wothout destroying the FOH mix, but I think we are just fine without it and we'd rather have the congregation have a balanced mix.

 

[dropitonthe1e]

I guess that the FOH sound is more important than myself or the rest of the band "feeling" the bass. Sure, we'd love if the space was large enough (it's not a super church) to handle a bass cab thumping up the stage so we could all feel it wothout destroying the FOH mix, but I think we are just fine without it and we'd rather have the congregation have a balanced mix.

Good for you. Like I mentioned before, I am often asked to turn UP. To some degree, it's hard to have clean, distinct bass destroy a mix. And in case you missed it again, I am often asked to turn UP, Im no hog.

 

[SteveC]

I'm just saying that I don't think our worship space could handle both and still achieve a good mix without being too loud.

 

[Big_Daws]

so for our band we are all on IEM's and for me i still use my amp...2 main reasons;

1/ Live sound. especially if you don't have subs. we use it to fill out the live sound (even when we use our subs), so that it doesn't sound empty or hollow. we set this level depending on space and stage volume. it not about being loud, its about filling.

2/ Feeling on stage. there is a difference in hearing a groove, and feeling a groove. it helps in being able to feel out the songs, communicate musically to the band.

anyway...my 2 cents

 

[wayshot]

I got my custom-mold IE-80 buds back in November. We're doing a gig tonight, it'll be my first gig using IEM. Our drummer is hard-hitting and I'm trying to avoid getting deaf by his snare and cymbals - and hearing my bass and harmony vox nice and clear. I'll also leave my cabs at home to make our sound guy happy. I've gotten used to the fact that hearing myself on stage usually results in some sound guy ordering me to turn the amp down.

 

[Geri O]

I have to disagree.. I have multiple drivers in my IEM's (1964 Quads) and they have soooo much bass its ridiculous.. it's probably your ears you are using that make you reach that conclusion!

Totally agree on the 1964 Quads. They are so friggin' low-end heavy that I use whatever EQ solutions I have (EQ on the output of my monitor send, the EQ available on the Aviom, etc) to reduce the amount of low end those things put out. And when that low end is reduced, they sound great! Yeah, I think they are up to around $600 now. But they are a long-term investment, like a bass rig.

Using only one earbud is very detrimental to your hearing in the ear with the bud. If, for whatever reason, you don't want to believe the IEM manufacturers and the ear doctors that would know, that's fine. But know that damage will occur. Period.

 

[nervous]

Hey, how do you folks with the entire band using IEM's communicate with each other?

 

[20db pad]

Hey, how do you folks with the entire band using IEM's communicate with each other?

The new Allen + Heath monitor mixers have a built-in onboard microphone that is supposed to address this, but it's not very useful and nobody in the group I play with uses it. There's simply a lot of waving and pulling out an earpiece so you can hear someone speaking.

 

[s0c9]

Hey, how do you folks with the entire band using IEM's communicate with each other?

We tried the ambient mics thing... dropped them quickly. To communicate, we generally just talk to each other.. we mostly have low IEM volumes as it doesn't take much to hear each other with all the ambient sound coming from vocal mics, guitar and drum mics.
We also pull out ear pieces when needed.. takes 2 secs... not hard to do..

 

[Joce]

A (long) while back, I read an interview with the bass player of a professional German rock band (Die Happy). He said the whole band had switched to IEM, but he still used his bass rig as a side fill (positioned to his side), to "feel" the bass too. Putting it sideways supposedly saved him trouble with the FOH guys.

 

[morgansterne]

have to agree with Jimmy about having a weak PA. in my new band the drummer just bought a new PA with two 12" subs (only250 watts rms. is that even a sub?) and two tops. Even if they're capable of carrying the bass all by themselves, it would leave no power left for much of anything else.

I love my IEM's and plan on not being deaf in 10 years thanks to them. I use them to protect my hearing, not to save myself from bringing a bass amp to the show.

 

[nervous]

Well. After all this time I was finally able to have the full live IEM experience yesterday. In fact I dragged as many othe band members along as a full trial. Our drummer had been using them for a couple months as the sound company provided them. In the meantime I had picked up a Shure PSM200 Transmixer, three receivers and three sets of SE215 buds. I know, I know, it's budget stuff but it's my budget and I'm tiptoeing in. The only place I failed was in trying to set up our keyboard player with a wired system using a Rolls PM55s box. The one I have will not accommodate a mono monitor input with a stereo output. So he had to use a floor monitor. But the rest of us powered up and were off and running.

I'm sure my initial experience is no different that most folks. Like anything this different form the norm there is a significant degree of adjustment and accommodation. It is very foreign and a bit off putting in many ways. It required a lot of effort to ignore what you brain is wanting or used to and trust what is happening. We have a solid sound company that has great experience with the system and noobs like us and we're very helpful. As expected the IEM approach is VERY honest. What you hear is what's happening. No excuses and it ain't always pretty. But I have to believe that's a good thing that will only make you better. For me the bass sound was a lot less fun and interesting than through a good amp. This will take some work to correct I believe. I'm going to try a set of Westone UM Pro20 buds which should be a significant step up from the budget Shure that I have now.

Generally speaking I think the three of us that shared the first time experience will commit and stay with it. We might lose the guitarist because he is so married to his pedalboard, rig and "sound" that he may never be happy with the sound that is happening in his ears. But the singer and I plan to stay with it. For the vocal improvement alone it could be worth it.

 

[morgansterne]

Our drummer just got himself wired in ear's and used them at practice for the first time on saturday. It was a little strange to see kick + overhead drum mics for a basement practice! being able to put a bit of kick drum on the in ears was fun.
At one point I switched basses and forgot to turn up the amp volume afterward. When we finish the song the guitarist and singer mention they couldn't hear me at all. I was only coming through the mains and the in-ears. The drummer and I could hear the bass just fine and had no idea the amp was off.

 

[s0c9]

Generally speaking I think the three of us that shared the first time experience will commit and stay with it. We might lose the guitarist because he is so married to his pedalboard, rig and "sound" that he may never be happy with the sound that is happening in his ears. But the singer and I plan to stay with it. For the vocal improvement alone it could be worth it.

This is a common reaction/problem/result for many guitar players.. BOTH of mine went back to wedges after about 4 months of trying E215/PSM200 IEM's.

Said they couldn't hear themselves once the whole band was playing.. I had no problem hearing them, but they DO play similar tones (bunch of different pedals on boards in front of amps - go figure!) .. so I get the reasoning even if I disagree with the outcome.

 

[F-Clef-Jef]

Hey, how do you folks with the entire band using IEM's communicate with each other?

We have a couple of ambient mics onstage (cheap Shure SM57's) that are fairly heavily gated, so it's not just a bunch of noise if someone isn't speaking right into them. They work beautifully!

 

[Barisaxman]

I certainly use my rig in most situations even though I've been on in-ears for a long time. Part of it is "feel", not just for me but for those patrons in close proximity to stage, especially in large venues when they are between the FOH stacks. There is very real difference in sound when you're basically out of the coverage pattern of the PA, and some stage volume from instruments actually helps coverage. Also a life saver if for some reason the in-ears fail (digital mixer crash, dead battery...yes been there...my fault, other technical issue). I've played my share of amp-less gigs and may be going back to a smaller stage rig rather than completely amp-less, but I've always felt there was some value beyond the aesthetics which have there own value depending on the gig/venue/band type/etc.

 

[Rocksolid]

I've used IEM for a few years now in a band that does not use IEM. I made the move because I swear our Guitard is deaf - and when I say deaf, I mean deaf in the frequencies he has pounded himself with from his Guitar amp for the last 30 years. This means he thinks everyone is obscenely loud, and he is not.

I still use a full rig for a few reasons:

1. A back up incase of IEM failure, or if I turn up to a gig to find for some reason the system the PA company has supplied won't allow me to patch in. I don't get a dedicated aux send, so I take a line off of the FOH and also use an ambient mic (rode M3) over the drums, along with a split of my vocals and Bass.

2. We are a show band - visuals are important.

3. The rest of the band needs to hear me on stage

4. I spent a lot of time and money on Bass rigs over the years, I'm not leaving them home. I will often pull my IEM out mid set for a few songs to hear my rig. (usually in a song where I'm not singing).

5. Feel

6. Reinforcement/spread in the room. If I am at a bar gig, and I want to hear what the bass player is doing, I go stand in front of his rig. I assume people may want to do the same with me.

 

[nervous]

Many interesting perspectives presented. And many that have me thinking that abandoning some sort of stage amplification may be foolhardy. Points well made and taken.

On another note, you all take a monitor feed from the FOH board. How much EQ, if any, is applied ahead of the feed to your transmitter.

 

[Jeff Elkins]

Generally speaking I think the three of us that shared the first time experience will commit and stay with it. We might lose the guitarist because he is so married to his pedalboard, rig and "sound" that he may never be happy with the sound that is happening in his ears. But the singer and I plan to stay with it. For the vocal improvement alone it could be worth it.

I used to fill in regularly for a worship band that was mega-church-ready (and eventually got there; long story). It was my first experience with IEMs, and I'll say I'm a huge fan. Couple of things that made my experience what it was: the rest of the band had plenty of experience, AND the worship leader wrote/found loops for most of the material we did... so we all played to a click. Out front we were one of the tightest bands of part-timers *I've* ever heard.

To answer one of the original questions: the guitarists really cared about the sound they got from their boutique amps--so they each built boxes that enclosed their head and a 110 (or smaller?) cab, hidden down behind the small stage, and mic'd them. Inexpensive solution to a couple of potential problems, I thought. No mic bleed, no angst about not getting the perfect sound (spent years in development, you see). They could push the gain for days, and FOH put it exactly where it belonged in the mix.

Speaking of bleed: the drummer played behind a plexiglass cage. In fact, all three of my church gigs had this same feature. Two of the three used IEMs.

 

[joebar]

I play in a P&W team on a large stage. we have all went to IEM's
I am close to the drums (they have a plexi cage around him).
I bought a set of $500 IEM's recently and locally.

here are the issues I am realizing:
-one of the drummers I play with hits so hard that even though I get as far away as I can from him (15 feet or so), he is still painful even with my -monitors in and behind the cage. I can hear all sorts of ambience from him. it should be noted that I do not run ANY drums thru my monitors ever; I don't need to. I only run bass, lead vox, piano and choir.
-I can never get enough bass in my mix and because of that, I run my rig beside me so I can feel it/ ambience.
-I think a drummer really needs to go electronic for the whole IEM thing to be fully realized.

I have a little bit of regrets about what I purchased-
I explained in great detail to the manufacturer in person what I was using them for and that I was originally going to go with quads.
he assured me that the ones he recommended to me would be good. who knows? maybe they are fine and the drummers I am working with are all morons-I dunno...