Live Bass - Use A Stage Amp With IEM?

[s0c9]

I play in a P&W team on a large stage. we have all went to IEM's
I am close to the drums (they have a plexi cage around him).
I bought a set of $500 IEM's recently and locally.

here are the issues I am realizing:
-one of the drummers I play with hits so hard that even though I get as far away as I can from him (15 feet or so), he is still painful even with my -monitors in and behind the cage. I can hear all sorts of ambience from him. it should be noted that I do not run ANY drums thru my monitors ever; I don't need to. I only run bass, lead vox, piano and choir.
-I can never get enough bass in my mix and because of that, I run my rig beside me so I can feel it/ ambience.
-I think a drummer really needs to go electronic for the whole IEM thing to be fully realized.

I have a little bit of regrets about what I purchased-
I explained in great detail to the manufacturer in person what I was using them for and that I was originally going to go with quads.
he assured me that the ones he recommended to me would be good. who knows? maybe they are fine and the drummers I am working with are all morons-I dunno...

Which IEM's were you persuaded to go with?

-I can never get enough bass in my mix and because of that, I run my rig beside me so I can feel it/ ambience. - have never used anything other than a DI at P&W when using Avioms.. but then my 1964 Quads can produce stupid amounts of bass when needed. Don't know how you are monitoring, but if you can never get enough bass, maybe the problem is not the IEM's but the signal level of your bass going into the monitor system?? Talk to the sound folks.. if Aviom, have them bump up the input trim on your bass channel.. Avioms generally use console direct outs.. so input trim levels affect signal strength.

-I think a drummer really needs to go electronic for the whole IEM thing to be fully realized. I disagree... we have shields too, but I only put the kick in my ears and a tiny bit of snare.. the rest I hear (like you) acoustically and are turned off. I tend to keep my IEM levels as low as possible.
I gig most weekends with a drummer (in clubs, etc. some large some not so large) who doesn't use a shield, and we don't have any of the issues you expressed.. Sounds like your drummer(s) believe that having shields removes the need for individual control.

 

[tbirdsp]

Wow - if you are getting THAT much bleed through of the drums I'd say whatever earbuds you are using are not sealing properly - probably the cause of the lack of bass too. I'm still coming to terms with IEM and my main issue is I can't hear the drums well enough! Well maybe the snare - I have trouble hearing the kick in my IEM mix no matter how loud I make it. No shields involved either. I think it's an EQ issue though. My bass guitar sounds great and there's plenty of low end (Westone UM Pro 30 triple driver buds) - just can't hear the "attack" of the kick well enough.
If the drums weren't miced I wouldn't even be able to play in time at all!

I run my GK MB Fusion 500's DI straight out to one channel of my Shure PSM 200 IEM transmitter, then through to FOH. I started setting the DI to "post EQ" to get a good sound in my ears - I don't do any radical EQ though so FOH has never had an issue. The other channel of the transmitter gets my monitor feed from the FOH mixer (usually Behringer x32). When I run my IEM I use a single Genz Benz Focus 115 cab at a fairly low volume, just for "feel" as some have mentioned. If not IEM I use an Avatar B212 Neo and crank it a little louder.

 

[joebar]

Which IEM's were you persuaded to go with?

-I can never get enough bass in my mix and because of that, I run my rig beside me so I can feel it/ ambience. - have never used anything other than a DI at P&W when using Avioms.. but then my 1964 Quads can produce stupid amounts of bass when needed. Don't know how you are monitoring, but if you can never get enough bass, maybe the problem is not the IEM's but the signal level of your bass going into the monitor system?? Talk to the sound folks.. if Aviom, have them bump up the input trim on your bass channel.. Avioms generally use console direct outs.. so input trim levels affect signal strength.

-I think a drummer really needs to go electronic for the whole IEM thing to be fully realized. I disagree... we have shields too, but I only put the kick in my ears and a tiny bit of snare.. the rest I hear (like you) acoustically and are turned off. I tend to keep my IEM levels as low as possible.
I gig most weekends with a drummer (in clubs, etc. some large some not so large) who doesn't use a shield, and we don't have any of the issues you expressed.. Sounds like your drummer(s) believe that having shields removes the need for individual control.

the main reason I take the drummers out of my mix is due to tempo problems but that is another story-

our sound crew at church are useless IME.
I do notice that the line out volume on my amp DI affects the gain in my bass mix.
I run passive basses and I am going to be adding a sadowsky preamp pedal between the bass and amp and run the DI from it to FOH; I suspect that that pedal may buffer the difference and may give the extra gain I need in my mix but I dunno...I am learning as I go. I know that the bass gain is full out on the Ipad software they have for the main mix. I have individual control at my personal monitor post (what do you call them?) but I find that it is easy to clip the input stage on it and distort my bass in the mix.

these are the IEM's I went with. the owner really worked hard to earn my business and he made the molds personally and turnaround was a week.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] AFM 2XB's
specs were similar to the quads and he was familiar with them.
to be fair, I originally sent molds to 1964 EARS and then they rejected them. being in Canada, they were going to be considerably more than these ones and I also worried about the distance if something else went wrong. I stayed local for these.

 

[joebar]

Wow - if you are getting THAT much bleed through of the drums I'd say whatever earbuds you are using are not sealing properly - probably the cause of the lack of bass too. I'm still coming to terms with IEM and my main issue is I can't hear the drums well enough! Well maybe the snare - I have trouble hearing the kick in my IEM mix no matter how loud I make it. No shields involved either. I think it's an EQ issue though. My bass guitar sounds great and there's plenty of low end (Westone UM Pro 30 triple driver buds) - just can't hear the "attack" of the kick well enough.
If the drums weren't miced I wouldn't even be able to play in time at all!

I run my GK MB Fusion 500's DI straight out to one channel of my Shure PSM 200 IEM transmitter, then through to FOH. I started setting the DI to "post EQ" to get a good sound in my ears - I don't do any radical EQ though so FOH has never had an issue. The other channel of the transmitter gets my monitor feed from the FOH mixer (usually Behringer x32). When I run my IEM I use a single Genz Benz Focus 115 cab at a fairly low volume, just for "feel" as some have mentioned. If not IEM I use an Avatar B212 Neo and crank it a little louder.

I think they are seated correctly; they do block out a ton of noise/sound. it's just that drummers think that screens are a license to hit with even wilder abandon. the one kid really hits hard to the point of pain-I would be deaf if not for the IEM's

 

[zagralin_arf]

All I use is a B7K live. IEM system to come, but we just have very specific soundchecks and I have no problem hearing live. I love not lugging all that gear around.

 

[s0c9]

our sound crew at church are useless IME.
I do notice that the line out volume on my amp DI affects the gain in my bass mix.

Yeah, most tend to be volunteers who - like you - learn as they go... and yes, if you "up" your line-out volume on your amp DI, you are changing the input level to the console - from which your IEM mix is tapped - and thus, the gain level in your bass mix (assuming FOH didn't change their trim levels).

I run passive basses and I am going to be adding a sadowsky preamp pedal between the bass and amp and run the DI from it to FOH; I suspect that that pedal may buffer the difference and may give the extra gain I need in my mix but I dunno...I am learning as I go. I know that the bass gain is full out on the Ipad software they have for the main mix. I have individual control at my personal monitor post (what do you call them?) but I find that it is easy to clip the input stage on it and distort my bass in the mix.

If you have an amp DI, running passive basses should have little impact on your output level. Sure, it may input the overall output level, but that is something that should be adjusted to suit the FOH needs.
If the bass gain is full on the iPad, my first guess is that the signal level (from you amp DI) is too low, and that will introduce noise into the system as they are trying to boost the console input trim and get something that is not there.

Next time you set up... have them MINIMIZE the gain (input trim) on the bass channel on the FOH console. Bump your amp DI level to 50% and have them SLOWLY bring up their level while you play.. Ideally, they should be able to get the input level metering in the "orange" zone on the console. See example for X32 in the pic below...
Different consoles have different meter colorings (digital vs analog) that mean different things.. Generally, RED is too hot = clipping, usually orange is OK, and green is OK, but not quite reaching/maximizing gain.
If they can't get the signal into the orange zone, slowly turn up your amp DI levels - while playing - until that happens. If both your amp DI level and their input levels are maxed and you still have the same issue.. there's a problem with the line to FOH or the channel. You SHOULD be able to get enough signal from you amp DI into the the bass channel at FOH.. should take about 30 seconds to adjust.

Once that level is set, it should instantly boost the level at your IEM station and allow you to hear yourself.
NOTE: That's a generic solution/approach, since you haven't mentioned, amp, console or monitoring vendor or models.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[joebar]

Yeah, most tend to be volunteers who - like you - learn as they go... and yes, if you "up" your line-out volume on your amp DI, you are changing the input level to the console - from which your IEM mix is tapped - and thus, the gain level in your bass mix (assuming FOH didn't change their trim levels).

If you have an amp DI, running passive basses should have little impact on your output level. Sure, it may input the overall output level, but that is something that should be adjusted to suit the FOH needs.
If the bass gain is full on the iPad, my first guess is that the signal level (from you amp DI) is too low, and that will introduce noise into the system as they are trying to boost the console input trim and get something that is not there.

Next time you set up... have them MINIMIZE the gain (input trim) on the bass channel on the FOH console. Bump your amp DI level to 50% and have them SLOWLY bring up their level while you play.. Ideally, they should be able to get the input level metering in the "orange" zone on the console. See example for X32 in the pic below...
Different consoles have different meter colorings (digital vs analog) that mean different things.. Generally, RED is too hot = clipping, usually orange is OK, and green is OK, but not quite reaching/maximizing gain.
If they can't get the signal into the orange zone, slowly turn up your amp DI levels - while playing - until that happens. If both your amp DI level and their input levels are maxed and you still have the same issue.. there's a problem with the line to FOH or the channel. You SHOULD be able to get enough signal from you amp DI into the the bass channel at FOH.. should take about 30 seconds to adjust.

Once that level is set, it should instantly boost the level at your IEM station and allow you to hear yourself.
NOTE: That's a generic solution/approach, since you haven't mentioned, amp, console or monitoring vendor or models.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

thx for the details-
I am using a markbass SD 1200 head-I am running the line out on the DI @ 80-90%...should I run it full out?
I do have my gains set low on the mixing post for my bass levels, but there is clipping to my bass sound easily if I push the pre gain stage on the post past 2ish.
I think a big part of why I cannot hear myself is that the drummers play so hard and I am 12-15 feet away from them and the ambient bleed kills my chances of hearing the bass in my ears. it totally defeats the purpose of what we are trying to do IMO which is lower stage volumes. it seems to me that unless they switch to electronic drums, the whole concept collapses.

 

[s0c9]

thx for the details-
I am using a markbass SD 1200 head-I am running the line out on the DI @ 80-90%...should I run it full out?
I do have my gains set low on the mixing post for my bass levels, but there is clipping to my bass sound easily if I push the pre gain stage on the post past 2ish.

That'sa lot of horse-power dude! In most venues (and on our own X32 console) I have the output level on my Markbass MINI CMD 121P set to 50%. Never had a problem and never need to go higher. 80-90% seems high to me.

The impedance on your IEMs is 37-Ohms, on my 1964's it's 25-Ohms.. not a huge difference, and on our P&W systems (Aviom and Behringer P16M's) I seldom have the master volume above the 10 o'clock position.
Sounds like you really need to work with your FOH guys, and figure out how the monitor signal is configured and fed to your station.
My IEM's (if I turn them up) will block ALL of the ambient drummer noise, even when I'm standing next to him...inside the shield !!
IME - something is seriously wrong in the setup at FOH/Monitors.... at 2pm setting you should be getting plenty bass in your ears..

IF you can let us know what console, what monitor system is in use.. it might help.
From what you've said, I don't believe it's you at fault here.

 

[joebar]

That'sa lot of horse-power dude! In most venues (and on our own X32 console) I have the output level on my Markbass MINI CMD 121P set to 50%. Never had a problem.
The impedance on your IEMs is 37-Ohms, on my 1964's it's 25-Ohms.. not a huge difference, and on our P&W systems (Aviom and Behringer P16M's) I seldom have the master volume above the 10 o'clock position.
Sounds like you really need to work with you FOH guys, and figure out how the monitor signal is configured and fed to your station.
My IEM's (if I turn them up) will block ALL of the ambient drummer noise, even when I'm standing next to him...inside the shield !!
Something is wrong in the setup at FOH/Monitors.... at 2pm setting you should be getting plenty bass..

IF you can let us know what console, what monitor system is in use.. it might help.
I don't believe it's you bass setup/amp.

it is the behringer post.
when I ran the line out @ 50%, they complained at the board that they weren't getting enough signal (that's ridiculous...its a 14000watt PA.). I should note that I run the DI pre EQ-I can choose pre or post.

I found I could hear myself in the ears better with the line out turned up higher.
I am just doing what I need to do to get through a service within reason.
I am throwing my own money at the problems when I probably wouldn't have to if we had some competence in the booth.

 

[s0c9]

it is the behringer post.
when I ran the line out @ 50%, they complained at the board that they weren't getting enough signal (that's ridiculous...its a 14000watt PA.). I should note that I run the DI pre EQ-I can choose pre or post.

It may be that PRE is causing the issue.. since (IIRC) the output on the Markbass is affected by that choice.. try it POST and see what happens... you may be told to turn down the the output levels

 

[joebar]

It may be that PRE is causing the issue.. since (IIRC) the output on the Markbass is affected by that choice.. try it POST and see what happens... you may be told to turn down the the output levels

ok thx I will try that-

 

[tbirdsp]

An update to my above post (about not hearing the kick drum) we played last night and I had one of the best IEM mixes ever. Sound guy said he wasn't doing anything different - except he has added a Driverack to his FOH speaker system. He uses some kind of RTA function in the Driverack to adjust the PA to each room - so he doesn't have to tweak the actual channel EQ's much anymore. He does run sound for other bands, so maybe I just got the benefit of the kick drum EQ from another band. Our drummer said the kick sounded better in his ears too.

 

[nervous]

An update to my above post (about not hearing the kick drum) we played last night and I had one of the best IEM mixes ever. Sound guy said he wasn't doing anything different - except he has added a Driverack to his FOH speaker system. He uses some kind of RTA function in the Driverack to adjust the PA to each room - so he doesn't have to tweak the actual channel EQ's much anymore. He does run sound for other bands, so maybe I just got the benefit of the kick drum EQ from another band. Our drummer said the kick sounded better in his ears too.

Dummy question for your circumstance. How is the FOH EQ affecting your IEM monitor mix? Where is your IEM feed being sourced? I would think that the proper place would be from a regular dedicated pre eq/pre fader monitor send or two (or three or four). That can certainly be run through an independent EQ of your choosing for but fully independent from any FOH levels or EQ. That's certainly how I intend to run them.

 

[tbirdsp]

Duh - you are right nervous - the channel eq shouldn't be affecting the IEM send. Just trying to figure out why it sucked but now it doesn't. To be honest - I think our sound guy is still learning the intricacies of the x32. I'm sure it has the ability to EQ each monitor send individually but I have no clue if he is even using that function.

 

[Geri O]

Dummy question for your circumstance. How is the FOH EQ affecting your IEM monitor mix? Where is your IEM feed being sourced? I would think that the proper place would be from a regular dedicated pre eq/pre fader monitor send or two (or three or four). That can certainly be run through an independent EQ of your choosing for but fully independent from any FOH levels or EQ. That's certainly how I intend to run them.

In theory, the IEMs could simply be better because the sound guy isn't adjusting for room anomalies with the individual channel EQs, therefore, not jacking around with them as much. An indirect effect, if you will...

I don't think the Driverack was the best thing the soundguy could have added, but that's another whole topic that I'm staying away from these days and at least you are sounding better in your ears.

 

[bass10bfb]

An update to my above post (about not hearing the kick drum) we played last night and I had one of the best IEM mixes ever. Sound guy said he wasn't doing anything different - except he has added a Driverack to his FOH speaker system. He uses some kind of RTA function in the Driverack to adjust the PA to each room - so he doesn't have to tweak the actual channel EQ's much anymore. He does run sound for other bands, so maybe I just got the benefit of the kick drum EQ from another band. Our drummer said the kick sounded better in his ears too.

I just got into this thread so forgive me if I am out of line. I will just put my little bit of knowledge I have in. The Driverack your sound man was talking about is for the PA system and if used correctly can make your PA sound SOOOOO much better. I had a good sized PA with JBL speakers but the PA lacked bass. I hooked up the Driverack and set it and I was amazing what it did for the sound of the PA. Now, how that would figure in to the IEM situation, I have no clue.....

At our church, our sound guy has us set up really well. We all play direct and use IEM. I actually just play with ear plugs now when I get to play. We have our own mixer setup on stage for our IEM mix (Behringer Brand) so we adjust what we want to hear in our ears. My daughter plays bass and I am actually playing right in front of where one of the huge QSC subs is positioned back behind the stage so I get to feel plenty of bass, and I just hear the house mix and go by it. We are all very happy with everything about our setup.

 

[bass10bfb]

I just got into this thread so forgive me if I am out of line. I will just put my little bit of knowledge I have in. The Driverack your sound man was talking about is for the PA system and if used correctly can make your PA sound SOOOOO much better. I had a good sized PA with JBL speakers but the PA lacked bass. I hooked up the Driverack and set it and I was amazing what it did for the sound of the PA. Now, how that would figure in to the IEM situation, I have no clue.....

At our church, our sound guy has us set up really well. We all play direct and use IEM. I actually just play with ear plugs now when I get to play. We have our own mixer setup on stage for our IEM mix (Behringer Brand) so we adjust what we want to hear in our ears. My daughter plays bass and I am actually playing right in front of where one of the huge QSC subs is positioned back behind the stage so I get to feel plenty of bass, and I just hear the house mix and go by it. We are all very happy with everything about our setup.

For anybody wondering, we use Shure IEM's (mostly just the $100 pairs), except for my daughter our bass player. I bought her one of the more expensive Shure pairs with better drivers and better bass response.
Our drummer uses Pearl acoustic/electric drums so we don't hear all of the loud noise on stage (and the drums sound HUGE out in the congregation). So that works out very well. My daughter plays thru a Tone Hammer preamp pedal and has a few pedals on a pedalboard on stage. We have 2 acoustic guitar players and 2 electric guitar players and a keyboard player. I play thru a Line 6 Pod HD500 and our other guitar player has a Peavey tube amp (just a small combo amp). That I literally the only amp we have on stage (but man it sounds so good there is no way we would complain)!!!!
Our sound system is the Behringer X32 which we really like and we use QSC Powered subs and mains. We use Behringer Powerplay Systems as our IEM system for each individual on stage. Like I said, we could not be happier with the setup we have right now.

 

[tbirdsp]

In theory, the IEMs could simply be better because the sound guy isn't adjusting for room anomalies with the individual channel EQs, therefore, not jacking around with them as much. An indirect effect, if you will...

Right, that's what I was thinking - but I don't know if the monitor send is pre or post channel eq. I assume it's switchable on the x32?
Just for the heck of it I looked at the flow diagram for my Mackie ProFX16 analog mixer - I see the monitor sends are indeed post-channel eq on it. We've been hiring out sound so much I'm forgetting how things normally are set up

 

[s0c9]

An update to my above post (about not hearing the kick drum) we played last night and I had one of the best IEM mixes ever. Sound guy said he wasn't doing anything different - except he has added a Driverack to his FOH speaker system. He uses some kind of RTA function in the Driverack to adjust the PA to each room - so he doesn't have to tweak the actual channel EQ's much anymore. He does run sound for other bands, so maybe I just got the benefit of the kick drum EQ from another band. Our drummer said the kick sounded better in his ears too.

The driverack (being post X32) would have no impact on your monitor mix - assuming your sound guy hooked it up [properly] in a normal mixer->DR->amp chain. It's AFTER the X32!! Therefore NOT a factor.

The auto-RTA function of the driverack is not the best (worthless IME, and causes more issues than it corrects).. it is affected by RTA mic positioning, RTA mic quality and is an approximation. Every time our BL uses it, we find mid and LF anomalies and artifacts that we have to adjust out, then change L/M/H output gain levels to offset. One my own (DR260) rig it is NEVER used. Totally flat!! There's plenty of EQ on the average mixer to handle room variances.. Think about it.. every time you auto-RTA a room with the DR, your channel EQ's on the X32 are no longer valid... as the EQ curve for the signal going to the amp has changed..based SOLELY on pink noise, NOT your music mix. You just changed the 31-band EQ of your main mix going to the amps!!!

Right, that's what I was thinking - but I don't know if the monitor send is pre or post channel eq. I assume it's switchable on the x32?
Just for the heck of it I looked at the flow diagram for my Mackie ProFX16 analog mixer - I see the monitor sends are indeed post-channel eq on it. We've been hiring out sound so much I'm forgetting how things normally are set up

How you configure/use the X32 for monitor mixes can definitely affect what you hear and monitor mixes should NOT be post anything the sound guy can do to a channel - as it impacts your IEM mix. IEM mixes on the X32 should be pre-fader and you can use the output bus channel strip for EQ, gate, compression, etc.

Without knowing exactly how s/he has that configured, it's hard to determine where your problem lies..
- Are you using the P16M's to monitor?
- Which X32 outputs are you using to send to monitors? Are you using the XLR or AUX outs?
- Mono/stereo?

 

[nervous]

Well, after a few jobs with IEM's as my exclusive monitor source I can offer my answer to my question. And that answer, to my surprise, is yes. Initially I fought the idea based on the pure logic that if I can't hear it I don't need it. But, on the urging of out very experienced for hire sound company I relented. The reasoning for having the amp, even at a lower volume, is a sensible one. Filling the space where the FOH may not cover and adding balance to the stage sound against drume and a guitar amp for patrons in a less than ideal FOH seat made sense. And, in one instance where I had a battery drop below a usuable voltage and my IEM went dead I played the remainder of the set, probably 7-8 songs, with no vocal or bass support, just picking up what I could off the FOH speakers which was less than ideal. Having that GK MB210 combo up and running would have been a great comfort. Lesson learned. And there I sa bit of the 'feel' component that folks have mentioned that also has merit. So, it looks like a small amp and IEM's it is for me.