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Local Live Music Is Dead

There was a guitar player around here back in the '70s and '80s by the name of Danny Gatton,maybe heard of him?Some nights he'd play local clubs and bars to audiences of10-20 people.Considering his level of talent,criminal. My take on the local scene and difficulty landing gigs at all,or good paying gigs,is economically driven.When the handle got flushed in late 2007-early 2008,thats when it started getting harder for everyone.Musicians,bars,clubs,all take the hit when money is tight.:(
 
There was a guitar player around here back in the '70s and '80s by the name of Danny Gatton,maybe heard of him?Some nights he'd play local clubs and bars to audiences of10-20 people.Considering his level of talent,criminal. My take on the local scene and difficulty landing gigs at all,or good paying gigs,is economically driven.When the handle got flushed in late 2007-early 2008,thats when it started getting harder for everyone.Musicians,bars,clubs,all take the hit when money is tight.:(

IMO, the bottom fell out at least a full decade prior to that, at least in the US. Of course, the current economy hurt things, but it is much more about competing entertainment (cable TV when it really hit in the 90's), the very tight drunk driving laws that were put in place (which was a good thing, but not for bars on weeknights), and primarily, as posted above, the total change in the music landscape which no longer particularly values the typical 'bar band' type live unit.
 
Sure, a DJ will sound better. We can still do something recognizable, along the lines of a piano reduction of a symphony. There's plenty of modern stuff that doesn't really have all that many instrumental layers anyway, if you avoid "electronic music for alternative white people". Plus we are more visible and, for lack of a better term, more human. That's our advantage. It's not hopeless.

Again, not trying to get into an artistic discussion so much as explaining why the VAST majority of live gigs have disappeared. Again, if you weren't there when it was good (not sure how old you are), it is hard to realize how bad it is now. Literally, there is no way to make a living as a gigging sideman for more than a handful of guys in major cities.

This isn't a 'hopeless' thing, just a change in the industry that happens quite often. Again, the best recent example is the disappearance of the big bands by the early 70's.

Yes, to your example above, pop groups will also hire a big horn section and even strings for a rare 'big TV performace' or whatever, but that has nothing to do with the fact that there are virtually no trombone players working today at all. That this is happening to guys who play guitar or drums these days is not surprising, although it can be shocking to those who are impacted.
 
Sure, I'm not gonna try to make a living playing music. I can make a lot more money elsewhere, I already wrote earlier just how crappy music pays here. The one guy I know who plays music for a living is miserably poor, and makes most of his money from having a group of bodypainted dancers. Hell, I did some estimating how much the bassist of a big national touring band with a platinum album makes per year in Poland, and it would not be worth quitting my job for the long term.

I play music basically to boost my social life, it works great for that, and one way or another probably always will. Still, though, whether someone wants to eke out a living for a few more months or years before inevitably giving up, or an amateur wants to get bigger/better gigs, IME playing modern stuff that most bands wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole is a great idea. Or you could learn to DJ while the market for that is good.
 
...but that has nothing to do with the fact that there are virtually no trombone players working today at all. That this is happening to guys who play guitar or drums these days is not surprising, although it can be shocking to those who are impacted.

much more eloquently put but along the lines i was thinking, i think. basically, when the market changes the vendor has to change with it.
 
I wouldn't say it's dead, but the market is in the process of correcting itself in deference to new technologies and the incredible dis-service that bands did to it for the past few decades.

I know....the bands fault? Blasphemy!!!!

Yes....go find the guitar player that walked into a venue with a 100 watt Marshall NMV head and blew out the ears of everyone in the place. Find him and kick him square in the junk. No go back to that venue and ask when karaoke or DJ night is. You'll want to bring a pencil and paper because the odds are every night is one or the other.

In time venues will find their niche and be "appropriate" for live music. It won't be every bar and club in the world, but there will be some. Hopefully this time around we won't screw it up royally.
 
IMO, the bottom fell out at least a full decade prior to that, at least in the US. Of course, the current economy hurt things, but it is much more about competing entertainment (cable TV when it really hit in the 90's), the very tight drunk driving laws that were put in place (which was a good thing, but not for bars on weeknights), and primarily, as posted above, the total change in the music landscape which no longer particularly values the typical 'bar band' type live unit.

I agree and maybe before that the bottom started falling out. In my area we had allot of clubs some that had national bands make their starts the college areas. You could walk down those streets all night and see bands everywhere and the clubs were wall to wall people all night 5-6 nights a week.

Today those streets have maybe 2-3 clubs that have live music and thats is spotty and with coverbands when original music was the rule back then. I often get told from folks in my area who played in that scene that they played 4-6 times a week and made a living off of playing music. They made the same money then as they do today. The problem is today they play 1 time a month and for the same pay or less than they made 20 or more years ago.
 
I agree and maybe before that the bottom started falling out. In my area we had allot of clubs some that had national bands make their starts the college areas. You could walk down those streets all night and see bands everywhere and the clubs were wall to wall people all night 5-6 nights a week.

Today those streets have maybe 2-3 clubs that have live music and thats is spotty and with coverbands when original music was the rule back then. I often get told from folks in my area who played in that scene that they played 4-6 times a week and made a living off of playing music. They made the same money then as they do today. The problem is today they play 1 time a month and for the same pay or less than they made 20 or more years ago.

+1

Interestingly, the top DJ's (again the real deal guys) are getting big bucks. This is the same thing that happened in the society type casual gigs in the early through late 70's, where the 5 piece 'pop bands' were getting the same bread as a 12-18 piece big band. It wasn't about headcount (even though the poor musician's union was still trying to enforce minimums back then... talking about an organization that was CLUELESS!), but about 'what the people wanted to hear.

A very good DJ can charge about the same as a good 6-8 piece party band in the midwest (roughly $3K a night), and that is all for him. For the big corporate events, the pay goes up to around $10K (although rental of a big PA comes out of that).

So, history again repeats itself, with the 5-7 piece pop bands shocked (shocked, I tell you:p), that a single guy with a computer and some discs can charge as much as them. It has nothing to do with 'what was', 'what is fair', or 'what we think is good'. It is all about what is hot, what is being played on the radio and purchased on MP3's, and what is 'good' within that slice of 'currently hot reality'.

I play in a party band that has an integrated hip hop DJ, and I'm pretty sure he makes MUCH more than any of the musician's in the band. It is a different world out there now.

I'm glad I was lucky enough to come up right when the 'small pop band' was 'the new hip thing'. I was able to do literally thousands of gigs over a 15 year period, and was ready to go part-time in the early 90's when everything went to hell.

It was amazing to be a teenager and be making $150 to $250 a weekend playing weddings at that time. Think about that... that would be like a kid making $1000 a weekend in today's dollars. Man, I had a new car, nice clothes, and plenty of time for homework. Wonderful life. As my skill developed, it was $400-$600 a week through the late 70's and 80's, sometimes with room and board provided. Again, think about that.... a free place to live, two meals a day, and in today's dollars, about $50K a year. It was hard work, night after night for years without really a break (since we all took gigs on Sundays also). But, it was a good living.

And guess what, the high end DJ's are doing just that at this point. 'And the painted ponies go round and round'....:D
 
I'm old enough to remember the days when I'd pull up to the club where i was playing on a Wednesday night, and they're be a line out the door. That's because a club HAD to have music and a good band was invaluable. Not so anymore -- at least not in NYC. There's hardly a live band scene anymore and where there is, pays crap. The 20-somethings have been raised on DJ's and that's fine with them.

And honestly, when it comes to small cover bands in restaurants and such, I'd rather not hear it myself. And any band playing originals is likely doing it for free.

All in all, it ain't pretty.

We toured a bit in NYC before CBGB closed & a couple other places around... it was dead. NYC is about wine, Lady Gaga, showing your wealth etc. Theres little passion for it & it was right about that time that I quit the band & went to use my degree.

I went on to some coverbands thinking we'd do better, play in front of more people, have more gigs & more fun but even that was a slog. People just dont PAY or WANT to see live music, maybe its not cool like it was. I have a bunch of friends that are 22ish & they never go to clubs to see bands.

Just a new generation, things change I guess
 
It depends on where you live too. I lived most of my life in New Orleans. There are plenty of trombone players working in NOLA. Live music is important in cities like NOLA, Nashville, Austin and most of the larger cities and college towns of Southeastern USA. These are cities where music is integral to culture and culture is integral to the city and its people.

No offense meant, but Sheboygan, Wisconsin may be a tough place to be an artist.
 
I'm in New Orleans this week so my position is skewed. I was out last night and live music does not seem to be dead at all,relatively.

I think for an overall perspective, especially from old timers like me that remember back in the mid 60s when bands were a novelty and every bar employed live music the decline is easier to see.

The pic, I just like looking at my club bass.
 
I'm in New Orleans this week so my position is skewed. I was out last night and live music does not seem to be dead at all,relatively.

Absolutely a territorial thing... the northeast is REALLY dead, its not part of "our" culture at all up here.

I'd love to go to NO, Austin, Memphis, Nashville just to see what its like to see people identify with music & really get into it.
 
It depends on where you live too. I lived most of my life in New Orleans. There are plenty of trombone players working in NOLA. Live music is important in cities like NOLA, Nashville, Austin and most of the larger cities and college towns of Southeastern USA. These are cities where music is integral to culture and culture is integral to the city and its people.

No offense meant, but Sheboygan, Wisconsin may be a tough place to be an artist.

I play on the road, and only recently moved to Sheboygan. I'm not even counting that.

Man, I have friends in Nashville who are STARVING. From what I understand, VERY little live performance any more there (and virtually nothing that pays). My understanding is Austin is even worse now. And be careful, playing live and getting paid are two very different things.

New Orleans is a bit of a different scene, but I understand the pay SUCKS in that town worse than even most places.

However, I am talking about the 98% of the rest of the country... St. Louis, Chicago, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Boston, etc. Even in New York it is tough going.
 
I agree that its much harder now (nigh impossible to earn a living doing it) but I think the local live music "industry" needs to adapt to the current market the same way the Big Entertainment companies need to adapt. The same way that simply distributing CDs isn't turning a profit anymore, neither is simply showing up to any gig and playing your tunes. Being a 24 year old musician who lives in one of the young / bar neighborhood of Pittsburgh PA (not the most musical city), and being that one of my main hobbies is going out drinking, I can tell you a bit of my observations.

For me and my friends, we're going out to a bar anyway, so I'd rather go somewhere with live music than somewhere without. What kills it is cover charges where you don't get anything in return.... sure I'd be willing to pay the cover, but my 5 friends in my party may not. Also when bands fool themselves into thinking they are the main attraction... most bar bands need to turn down a bit and learn their place in the environment, they can't figure out why they're playing to an empty room while the adjacent room is packed full. Well maybe people like to listen to music WHILE talking to their friends or meeting new people, deafening volume kills the social aspect in bars. Then theres advertising/marketing.... much more often than not, I wander into a bar and a band randomly starts playing, and I had no idea they were coming... awesome for me, but why didn't they have a flier or something up? Conversely, theres MANY times I'd love to go out drinking and watch music but CAN'T FIND ANY. I have 5 bar websites bookmarked, they only update 50% of the time, and if they all are having kareoke that night then I have no direction. Theres also bands who advertise their name, but give no indication to what they're all about.... I'm not going to drive 20 minutes to see a band where I dont know if they're acoustic folk or death metal beforehand.

Those are my observations, more as an attendee than as a bassist. My current band is in reformation process and we hope to start gigging in the next couple months, and I hope to adjust our strategy around these observations.

Also, this is a more personal observation, but as a young IT professional who works 9-5 M-F, I have plenty of time during the week to go to local shows. Theres tons of young people in this same predicament, they get out of work at 5 and WANT to do something but don't know what. Reach THOSE people, they're the ones who spend big at a bar and will follow a band as a "fan" if they know that band brings a good time. People don't fall in love with "bands" anymore, but they do remember "that crazy fun night at X bar where this band was playing and everyone was lovin it", so if you can sell people the experience rather than just the band I think you'll go far.

I'm trying now to think of a way to mix the "game nights" bars have (like Trivia, Wheel of Fortune, etc.) with gigging. Something where teams have 3 minutes to "do" something (while you play the song) then between songs the game happens. Then you go to the next round of the game and play a new song. I know enough people who flock to those themed bar nights that it'd be great to merge the two strategies somehow.
 
I'm not in the States, nor have I gigged there for more than a decade, but I think live music is still strong in certain areas. Festivals still draw big crowds. Big ticket stadium etc. shows still draw. And small venues (varying by location but in my area under 100 capacity) can maintain a solid following by consistently booking quality acts.

The areas that I would say have been suffering, and have been in strong decline since the early-mid 90s, are the medium and larger clubs, 150-400 capacity, and especially if you are not a very well-known act.

All of this means it is very tough to garner a name for yourself as a new face on the scene. It was always tough to do so, but it really does seem to have gotten more and more difficult IME. As a gigging musician, I'm mainly in three areas: 1. small venues with singer/songwriter types, 2. local cover acts, 3. regional casinos with a tribute act. #2 is my bread and butter (and it's not all bad, we play very loose versions of things and have a lot of fun with the tunes), and #3 is not as busy as I'd like but pays very well. #1 is where I enjoy what I'm doing the most, but is undoubtedly the toughest to get people out for - although my city has a long tradition of supporting local artists (probably due to our general isolation) and so it isn't as bad here as it probably is elsewhere.
 
I play on the road, and only recently moved to Sheboygan. I'm not even counting that.

Man, I have friends in Nashville who are STARVING. From what I understand, VERY little live performance any more there (and virtually nothing that pays). My understanding is Austin is even worse now. And be careful, playing live and getting paid are two very different things.

New Orleans is a bit of a different scene, but I understand the pay SUCKS in that town worse than even most places.

However, I am talking about the 98% of the rest of the country... St. Louis, Chicago, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Boston, etc. Even in New York it is tough going.

All I can tell you is that in moving from NOLA to San Antonio, I was shocked by how bad things were here as far as the live music scene. I began networking with other SA people who would go see music in Austin and we decided that if we couldnt go "see" the music that we wanted to hear, we would make it ourselves. In the intervening period, there has been a shifting tide here. Whether its a spillover or rejection of the Austin "scene" is unknown. But we are experiencing a renaissance of live music in this town. We have a tight knit, albeit mildly incestual, musicians network here and new live music clubs/venues are popping up with some frequency now. Im too old and have too many other resposibilities in my life at this point to try and make my sole living out of music. But if I was in my twenties, unmarried and no kids, there would be worse places to try and make it than SATX.

The point is that it can happen and is happening. I believe these things go in cycles. Rock and roll is hot right now believe it or not. It may sound silly but much of this resides with us. We need to be leaders in our scenes and try to make the best music we can, network with others and try to push what we know is true:"Live music in a small room with good people can be a life affirming experience." Once people get hooked, they'll keep coming back.
 
If one wants to meet a hot chick and get laid, then I can see the local bar. But DJ's are probably the better draw of the hot chicks.

If one wants to hear really good music, well in San Diego, the local bands are competing with the small concert venue.

One may ask, "Do I want to go listen to the cover band at Joe's bar, or see Nathan East play with Fourplay, or see Robben Ford, or B.B. King etc etc."

Really good acts have become so accessible at small venues, it's pretty hard for the local musicians to compete with that.
 
theretheyare said:
I hear you-try NYC. Clubs come and go at a beathtaking speed. ALmost always door gigs, occasionally pay to play. Some places pay, and are almost empty, meaning they are probably funded through something shady. Only people who show up are fellow musicians, supporting you, while pushing their own agenda's. It's a drag-but it is also a fantastic challenge.

It's a crazy game, isn't it?
 
All I can tell you is that in moving from NOLA to San Antonio, I was shocked by how bad things were here as far as the live music scene. I began networking with other SA people who would go see music in Austin and we decided that if we couldnt go "see" the music that we wanted to hear, we would make it ourselves. In the intervening period, there has been a shifting tide here. Whether its a spillover or rejection of the Austin "scene" is unknown. But we are experiencing a renaissance of live music in this town. We have a tight knit, albeit mildly incestual, musicians network here and new live music clubs/venues are popping up with some frequency now. Im too old and have too many other resposibilities in my life at this point to try and make my sole living out of music. But if I was in my twenties, unmarried and no kids, there would be worse places to try and make it than SATX.

The point is that it can happen and is happening. I believe these things go in cycles. Rock and roll is hot right now believe it or not. It may sound silly but much of this resides with us. We need to be leaders in our scenes and try to make the best music we can, network with others and try to push what we know is true:"Live music in a small room with good people can be a life affirming experience." Once people get hooked, they'll keep coming back.

I think we are talking about two different things here. I also have as much work as I want these days. There will always be gigs for good players and good bands. However, (and this is the point), the pay is low, and 'all that music' is now typically on Saturday night.

Being a gigging musician IMO and IME is not a career any more. Some old timers who have lots of connections are still eeking by, but not with much.

It is simple to do the math. On average, seems like there are about 20% of the gigs there were 25 years ago (i.e., it is mostly a Saturday night and sometimes Friday night business), and the bar and the casual pay has actually significantly decreased (i.e., the actual pay is the same, but taking inflation into account, the pay is probably half or less compared to 1975).

So, yes, there are areas where you can play 50-150 gigs a year for $100-$300 a night, depending on club, casual or whatever. When you do the math, that will put a decent freelance player just below the poverty level, with no health benefits, no savings plan, and having to pay full self-employment tax.

It just is, unfortunately. Nobody's fault... times change, music changes. If you are a hobby-est or a part-timer, kind of a moot point. A few gigs a month for little money, its fun, whatever. However, for a person with real skill who could have made a living even 25 years ago, those days are pretty much over. Yes, you can teach, work days in a music store or some other low level job, and 'kind of make it' if you don't have a family, or have a spouse that works, but that is a far cry from what it was from the 40's through the mid 80's.

IMO and lots of IME!

Edit: No offense, but your last statement sounds a lot like the jazz guys always talking about 'educating the listener', and also the old joke that we used for so many years: 'watch out, the big bands are coming back'. Once you get into the 'if only the consumer knew what he/she was missing, everything would be alright', that is basically the time to shoot the horse and put it out of its misery! That does not mean that making good music isn't wonderful. I'm still very serious about what I do. However, it is not a living any more.
 

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