Local Live Music Is Dead

[Stranger Danger]

I think we are talking about two different things here. I also have as much work as I want these days. There will always be gigs for good players and good bands. However, (and this is the point), the pay is low, and 'all that music' is now typically on Saturday night.

Being a gigging musician IMO and IME is not a career any more. Some old timers who have lots of connections are still eeking by, but not with much.

It is simple to do the math. On average, seems like there are about 20% of the gigs there were 25 years ago (i.e., it is mostly a Saturday night and sometimes Friday night business), and the bar and the casual pay has actually significantly decreased (i.e., the actual pay is the same, but taking inflation into account, the pay is probably half or less compared to 1975).

So, yes, there are areas where you can play 50-100 gigs a year for $100-$300 a night, depending on club, casual or whatever. When you do the math, that will put a decent freelance player just below the poverty level, with no health benefits, no savings plan, and having to pay full self-employment tax.

It just is, unfortunately. Nobody's fault... times change, music changes. If you are a hobby-iest or a part-timer, kind of a moot point. A few gigs a month for little money, its fun, whatever. However, for a person with real skill who could have made a living even 25 years ago, those days are pretty much over. Yes, you can teach, work days in a music store or some other low level job, and 'kind of make it' if you don't have a family, or have a spouse that works, but that is a far cry from what it was from the 40's through the mid 80's.

IMO and lots of IME!

Edit: No offense, but your last statement sounds a lot like the jazz guys always talking about 'educating the listener', and also the old joke that we used for so many years: 'watch out, the big bands are coming back'. Once you get into the 'if only the consumer knew what he/she was missing, everything would be alright', that is basically the time to shoot the horse and put it out of its misery! That does not mean that making good music isn't wonderful. I'm still very serious about what I do. However, it is not a living any more.

No offense taken, I spent my formative years growing up in New Orleans and then taking a life altering trip following the Grateful Dead for a summer, so I have live music as a backdrop for my life. Im as much a fan as I am a player. I know in my heart what music can do to people and for people. But I also respect and hear what you're saying. Im just not ready to throw in the towel yet, and I dont think any of us are or we wouldnt be here talkbassing so much!

 

[KJung]

No offense taken, I spent my formative years growing up in New Orleans and then taking a life altering trip following the Grateful Dead for a summer, so I have live music as a backdrop for my life. Im as much a fan as I am a player. I know in my heart what music can do to people and for people. But I also respect and hear what you're saying. Im just not ready to throw in the towel yet, and I dont think any of us are or we wouldnt be here talkbassing so much!

+1 Sorry, I get a bit 'preachy' on this topic since the business part of music interests me so much.

You know, I never was a huge Dead Head, but recently bought the remasters of a couple of the classics Workingmans' Dead and American Beauty that I remember from my youth. Wonderful. I also bought the recently released concert disc 'To Terrapin: hartford 77' (I think I have that name right). Fantastic playing and sound. Jack Straw has to be one of the greatest tunes ever written IMO.

Anyway, I enjoy the discussion. As an almost 55 year old, I weep a bit when I see these young guys just burning in these 'jazz programs' with really nowhere to play and make a living. Makes me sad, especially remembering that when I was that age, you literally could play ever night for good pay if you could read a little, knew the third of the Real Book that mattered (depending on what town you were in) and could slap just a bit and had that new 'stainless steel roundwound sound' that everyone wanted

 

[Stranger Danger]

You do have it right.
I love that one! My favorite Terrapin Station and Brown Eyed Women are on there too. Give em a listen when you get a chance.

I named my daughter Stella after Stella Blue, so you can say Im a dyed in the wool Dead Head.

 

[KJung]

You do have it right.
I love that one! My favorite Terrapin Station and Brown Eyed Women are on there too. Give em a listen when you get a chance.

I named my daughter Stella after Stella Blue, so you can say Im a dyed in the wool Dead Head.

I dig the entire disc. Nice chatting with you!

 

[Stranger Danger]

I dig the entire disc. Nice chatting with you!

I actually opened this thread because from the title I thought it was going to be a Grateful Dead thread. LOL, I guess it turned out to be anyway.

BTW, as a 2nd thread jack, Id like to say your review of the TCE RH450 is what helped convince me to buy the rig and I couldnt be happier with it.

 

[moebass]

Dont forget alot of clubs/bars just want cover bands. The human jukebox if you will. Rock music somehow has become a a few bands and a few songs form just a few decades. The Classic Rock radio station. It seems to me that the assumptiom of the club is thats all people want to hear,stuff thay have already heard. Dude yells play Freebird! Then the band plays it. Thats the plight of the artist. Otherwise learn to push play on your ipod and watch the place fill. Because thats where the money is, if thats what your in it for.
I look at like this. Money is a bonus,because i would be rockin the bass anyway. Thats not to say,it dosn't suck that some guy pushing play on an ipod can get a gig easyer and for more money than a band who writes there own songs,but thats how it is. Rock music is just not as "cool" as it once was in the eyes of the public.

 

[KJung]

I actually opened this thread because from the title I thought it was going to be a Grateful Dead thread. LOL, I guess it turned out to be anyway.

BTW, as a 2nd thread jack, Id like to say your review of the TCE RH450 is what helped convince me to buy the rig and I couldnt be happier with it.

Great head. TC has taken a bit of a beating on TB for their power management/wattage thing, but I'm still quite impressed with that unit, and the vast majority of players who own them still love them. Great amp!

Edit: I assume you are familiar with the 'Jazz is Dead' stuff.... where Alphonso Johnson and gang recreate entire Dead concerts in a jazz/fusion type context. Pretty amazing stuff, although a little goes a long way with me!

 

[Stranger Danger]

Great head. TC has taken a bit of a beating on TB for their power management/wattage thing, but I'm still quite impressed with that unit, and the vast majority of players who own them still love them. Great amp!

Edit: I assume you are familiar with the 'Jazz is Dead' stuff.... where Alphonso Johnson and gang recreate entire Dead concerts in a jazz/fusion type context. Pretty amazing stuff, although a little goes a long way with me!

Yes I am. Jimmy Herring really shines in that setting as well.

 

[Tampabass]

I think we are talking about two different things here. I also have as much work as I want these days. There will always be gigs for good players and good bands. However, (and this is the point), the pay is low, and 'all that music' is now typically on Saturday night.

Being a gigging musician IMO and IME is not a career any more. Some old timers who have lots of connections are still eeking by, but not with much.

It is simple to do the math. On average, seems like there are about 20% of the gigs there were 25 years ago (i.e., it is mostly a Saturday night and sometimes Friday night business), and the bar and the casual pay has actually significantly decreased (i.e., the actual pay is the same, but taking inflation into account, the pay is probably half or less compared to 1975).

So, yes, there are areas where you can play 50-150 gigs a year for $100-$300 a night, depending on club, casual or whatever. When you do the math, that will put a decent freelance player just below the poverty level, with no health benefits, no savings plan, and having to pay full self-employment tax.

It just is, unfortunately. Nobody's fault... times change, music changes. If you are a hobby-est or a part-timer, kind of a moot point. A few gigs a month for little money, its fun, whatever. However, for a person with real skill who could have made a living even 25 years ago, those days are pretty much over. Yes, you can teach, work days in a music store or some other low level job, and 'kind of make it' if you don't have a family, or have a spouse that works, but that is a far cry from what it was from the 40's through the mid 80's.

This is exactly on point. EVEN in places with well-earned reps for being hotbeds of musical activity - New Orleans, Austin, Nashville, etc - I'd suggest that it's practically an impossibility making a decent living playing local gigs. Talk to musicians in those towns, and you'll find that a)the competition is more intense, and b)they still don't gig enough, and c)when they do gig they get pay that's usually as @#$tty as gigs in other towns.

Now, if you are able to augment the local gigs with some well-paid tours with national artists ... could be different/better. But even some of those guys will tell you that two months' worth of good pay hardly makes up for the other 10 months of sub-standard wages. Probably the combination that will best ensure a decent living is combining a full-time tenure-track college teaching position with performing. But you know how hard those gigs are to get? And if you aren't a famous musician, you're practically going to have a PhD.

Not really complaining here. I play good music with talented players, treat it seriously, have fun, and sometimes get paid well. All part time. It is what it is, and I long ago came to terms with that reality.

But if I had to depend on that pay for a living ... my family would be on the street.

 

[bassbully]

Absolutely a territorial thing... the northeast is REALLY dead, its not part of "our" culture at all up here.

I'd love to go to NO, Austin, Memphis, Nashville just to see what its like to see people identify with music & really get into it.

+1 But is used to be. Here in NE Ohio it was huge a great scene, now its dead, except for a few clubs which we are lucky to have.

 

[bluewine]

We toured a bit in NYC before CBGB closed & a couple other places around... it was dead. NYC is about wine, Lady Gaga, showing your wealth etc. Theres little passion for it & it was right about that time that I quit the band & went to use my degree.

I went on to some coverbands thinking we'd do better, play in front of more people, have more gigs & more fun but even that was a slog. People just dont PAY or WANT to see live music, maybe its not cool like it was. I have a bunch of friends that are 22ish & they never go to clubs to see bands.

Just a new generation, things change I guess

I hear you, I remember when being in a working band meant something

Now:

"Yeah, I play bass in The Jobs, were playing at The Hideaway tonight."

Response :

"Really, who cares"

blue

 

[Mooch]

While our band has not problem finding shows and making good money, and issue I do have is the cover bands. Some bars get 1 or 2 cover bands in the door and they draw a good crowd or whatever. But then you go out as an originals act and try to book the same place the venue has an issue with you not playing covers.

I honestly think that if there weren't so many cover bands out there it might be easier for everyone. No one wants change or to give something new a chance.

That said we still don't have an issue finding gigs here in Minnesota. Just wish we could get in everywhere not just certain places.

 

[rhythumb]

Since I am in a band that does few live gigs, I am looking at this mostly from a fan's perspective. First of all, I LOVE LIVE MUSIC, be it jazz, punk, or rock. However, like travep, I am getting older. It has become much more difficult to go to a week night show, that is scheduled to start at 9:30 (but actually starts closer to 11:00) and get up on time the next morning. I have always wondered why week night shows don't start earlier.

Totally agree with you and believe there is a market for live music earlier in the evening. One way to look at this is that older customers generally have more disposable income then twenty- somethings. Why not offer live music that starts as early as (dare I say) 8pm to cater to this crowd?

 

[bluewine]

Edit: No offense, but your last statement sounds a lot like the jazz guys always talking about 'educating the listener', and also the old joke that we used for so many years: 'watch out, the big bands are coming back'. Once you get into the 'if only the consumer knew what he/she was missing, everything would be alright', that is basically the time to shoot the horse and put it out of its misery! That does not mean that making good music isn't wonderful. I'm still very serious about what I do. However, it is not a living any more.

Chuck Berry : "Yeah, I should be a jazz musician."

Keith Richards: "Ain't no money in it Chuck "

 

[fishdreams]

I see these young guys just burning in these 'jazz programs' with really nowhere to play and make a living. Makes me sad, especially remembering that when I was that age, you literally could play ever night for good pay if you could read a little, knew the third of the Real Book that mattered (depending on what town you were in) and could slap just a bit and had that new 'stainless steel roundwound sound' that everyone wanted

Thanks KJ for your well-stated comments. I agree totally on your general points-the paradigms of musical perception are changing, and us old codgers for whom holding an instrument in our hands made from wood & plonking notes out of it, is a natural enviroment for music being made, are gradually sliding out of the common mindset.

As to the big band blues: I have a 70-year old jazz guitar virtuoso friend here in NY who to this day blames the Beatles for everything that went down the drain

A saxophonist friend in my age group (46) took some educational program last year, having classes amidst 20 year olds. It shocked him deeply. The only way they understood making music was building multitracks from samples at home on your laptop. And..a...saxomophone...is that, like, a real instrument?

And it is not just hiphop- I worked with a young kid a few years ago, who had bought tickets to go see the Guitar Hero world championships in Madison Square Garden. I asked him why not pay the same money to go hear someone play real guitar instead, and he looked at me as if I was insane.

We can shake our fists at the skies and curse them youngsters all we want-but we can't change it.

I personally like it. I make my money elsewhere now, and all I have to worry about nowadays, is what music I really want to make.

 

[pklima]

Totally agree with you and believe there is a market for live music earlier in the evening. One way to look at this is that older customers generally have more disposable income then twenty- somethings. Why not offer live music that starts as early as (dare I say) 8pm to cater to this crowd?

That seems to work for the big stars who sell very expensive tickets - look at the top-grossing tours of 2011, you got Taylor Swift at #4, Rihanna at #7, Kenny Chesney at #8 but the rest of the top 10 is nostalgia.

At the local level, you could probaly play for the older/richer crowd doing background music in fancy restaurants. Not sure about bars.

Something else that does work and that DJs are unlikely to take over is humorous stuff... IME people here love country songs like "Homegrown tomatoes", "Fat girls and weed", originals with titles like "International Ass Investigator"... not outright Weird Al type comedy, just kinda silly goofy songs.

 

[Basshappi]

Wow......... I guess 90% of us don't count. Sorry, but I play 6 to 8 shows per month in packed bars and nearly sold out venues but only play Country, Classic Rock, old R&B, Motown and Blues.

Really?
In Tucson?
Where?

 

[Crazyeelboy]

The interesting point to the article is that venue managers don't realize that their business survival depends on drawing people to the venue and not expecting the bands to do it for them. That is the key to building a succesful venue, at least here in Moscow. As a general matter we only book in these types of venues - they bring the crowd and we bring the show!

 

[fishdreams]

The interesting point to the article is that venue managers don't realize that their business survival depends on drawing people to the venue and not expecting the bands to do it for them. That is the key to building a succesful venue, at least here in Moscow. As a general matter we only book in these types of venues - they bring the crowd and we bring the show!

That's great - but that requires a healthy amount of people in the population who want to (pay to) go see/hear music for the sake of music. Which is true for Moscow (judging from what my wife told me when she toured there) and Europe in general, but something I see in the States not so much.

 

[fingerbun]

As to the big band blues: I have a 70-year old jazz guitar virtuoso friend here in NY who to this day blames the Beatles for everything that went down the drain

A saxophonist friend in my age group (46) took some educational program last year, having classes amidst 20 year olds. It shocked him deeply. The only way they understood making music was building multitracks from samples at home on your laptop. And..a...saxomophone...is that, like, a real instrument?

At 50, I guess I just have to glumly say age has a lot to do with it.

I actually enjoy the whole multitracking and sampling thing, and don't see it as incompatible with live music. Sorry if that is a heresy. I don't think it's anything new. I just think that a Mac with GarageBand or Logic is more advanced than the old four-track I was using 30 years ago and can make a lot more sounds, the same as a modern bass rig can make a lot of sounds that were not possibly on an unamplified upright. But no-one's terribly interested. Sure I could use sequencing to form one of those cover-duo-with-backing-track acts, but it's not what I want to do.

Secondly, people my age don't stay out late on weeknights like we all did when we were 20, because we have more responsibilities and less energy. And the 20 year olds today don't want to watch someone of their parents generation. I can understand that too. I remember what I thought of Elvis and Sinatra when I was that age. But that means gigs are basically a weekend proposition.

I take the gigs where I find them, and it's usually a compromise compared to what I would do if everything was my way. Again it's the age thing, combined with a liking of obscure music.

I get enough work, and the money is mostly ok, but not enough to live off, let alone save for the future. My friends who have stayed fulltime mostly do corporate stuff or upmarket venues, and I've done a bit of that. It's just not what I enjoy. If I had to live off music it's what I'd probably target though.