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Looking for a 'tighter' sound live , especially low end
- Thread starter pbass888
- Start date
Don't pay attention to faulty advice about mids! Boosting low mids only makes it muddier! I would lose the pre-amp. I leave bass and mids at 12:00 and treble at 9:00 on my amp. guitar tone knob at least halfway up. Will give you plenty of punch and definition.
What is everyone else saying about your sound? Is it just you, or is it sounding good to other ears?
Depending on the acoustics in the venue, I find myself using two types of cabinets. If the room tends to be boomy or have a lot of echo, I use a Phil Jones C8 cabinet. It tightens up the bottom end perfectly. You still get excellent reproduction of the low B, but it just keeps it controlled and clear. The eight 5" speakers are ideal for this application.
For all other venues, I use a pair of Genzler 12-3 Array cabinets. They are amazing at providing spectacular low end that rivals an 18" speaker, but has the tightness of the 12" speaker they use. The four 3" drivers in the array pattern down the front also provide outstanding dispersion of your sound for a clear and immediate response from your playing. I have yet to find anything that remotely compares for tightness and incredible wide tonal range.
Lastly, if you want a tighter low end, make sure you are using a solid state amp. You can use a tube preamp, but unless you have solid state for the power, you will be introducing a slower and muddier signal to your rig. Going tube on tube is really a mush fest. I always use an Alembic preamp, so I get smooth tube tone, but also a lot of clear high end to balance the lows. Running a lot of power also helps clear up the signal. I run a minimum of 3000 watts up to 5400 watts. Headroom will not blow your speakers. Distortion from too little power will.
Oftentimes the mud is wraparound from the main subs. Especially if they're under a stage. Only thinkg I do to solve is put bass at 0, mid at 3 and treble at 5 and boost volume thru only a 12". All you end up doing with this is adding clarity to the already present mud that probably sounds fabulous out front.
Very similar to hipass approach.
Very similar to hipass approach.
I greatly improved my tone with a simple, cheap used 10-band EQ pedal that is suitable for guitar or bass. $75 used, I believe. Done.
- Jan 26, 2014
- 1,525
- 1,946
- Disclosures
- I teach lessons and perform live music in and around San Diego CA. Sometimes I even make money doing it!
Yep, high volume and tight bass are a tricky proposition. If you're simply at a volume where the speakers are starting to break up, there's literally no way to get that crisp, clean sound you might enjoy at a jazz gig. The speakers aren't capable of producing it. So... more high quality speaker cabs to spread the workload around is a logical step to take. If backline is provided, though, you're stuck. But choosing a jazz bass in that situation is a great idea, because one of the most effective ways to tighten up your tone is... the pickup blend. I find a lot depends on the room. Some rooms respond to one pickup or combination better than another, so that's my first line of defense against muddy craptone. Now most of the gigs I played with provided back line were run and gun festivals with very little soundcheck time, so I got pretty good at figuring it out. If I'm given a couple seconds to EQ the rig I'll start flat, adjust my pickups for the tone I'm looking for, and then start EQing. Always EQ with your ears, not your eyes. A bizarre EQ curve might be what's best for the stage you're on. You do have to learn and anticipate what is going to sound good in the mix vs what sounds good solo, in a lot of cases as many people have mentioned backing off the lows can help.
For reggae a bit of cab distortion is actually a good thing, what works best is usually "thick" vs "fat," if that makes sense. A fat tubby tone is great recorded, but that requires the other instruments being EQed to get the heck out of your way. Do you think that's going to happen live? LOL. A touch of distortion from the amp or cab can help push the low mids out clearly without too much mud. It's hard to say how exactly to do that when you don't own the gear, so outboard gear might be necessary. I personally used a bass pod pro for years, and now use a Radial Firely (the gain staging and HPF are incredibly easy to work with, and I rarely need as many sounds as the bass pod pro provides) and both of those pieces work well for me. Anything that can drive your input to the point of compression/distortion is going to help.
A lot depends on the style of music. If you want a big tone that's still easy to understand, notch the midbass (mud, surplus, second harmonic) out a little, keep the mids (clarity, harmonics, definition) and pull the bass back about 10 percent. many bass guitars are just too bassy with the smiley eq to be truly intelligible. Extra points for getting the 4k chirp tamed.
Trying to get tightness out of a rig can be difficult. I've been playing bass for 40 years and I've sat in with many many bands and rarely does somebody have a rig That's bitey and tight. Sometimes it only takes one knob to be off to create that mushy Hollow crappy sound. I have four or five bass guitars but I always use the same rig it's a SWR SM 400 s. I bought it in 1996. Recently I purchased one on eBay in case something happened to mine because the sound is so incredible. So EQ is important you want to cut somewhere around 700. boost a little around 40 boost around 200 a little and boost a little at 1.6 also use a bit of compression more than less (I USE A LOT)that helps with the bite it also helps get rid of a little of The Hollow sound because the notes tend to be cut off. Hollowness is exacerbated when notes sustain. BUT mushy and Hollow are usually the culprits of EQ. I play out of a 410 cabinet with 300w genz Benz speakers. So just some food for thought
How you are eq'ing the bass will make all the difference in rooms with challenging acoustics. If the sound is too muddy try cutting the bass knob a bit. Also FOH engineers sometimes are overzealous with the subs and there can be competing frequencies between kick drum, bass, tracks (if your band uses them), and keyboard parts. Also realize that as you raise the volume of your bass amp the amount of bass goes up too. Stage volume can be tricky. If your amp sits on the floor a phenomenon known as coupling is likely to take place. If the bass' stage volume is too high it can be disastrous. Also if you stand in front of your amp, as most of us do, you will percieve your volume to be lower than what people 30 feet away do, since bass frequencies are longer and take longer to "bloom". I reccomend the following:
1. Cut your stage volume a bit.
2. Ask for some bass in your monitor.
3. Depending on how much the FOH is using (or overusing) the subs, attenuate the bass eq on your amp. This one is tough, because you have to try to feel what your sound is like in the crowd while you are on stage, and this can change with bodies in a room. Bottom line, the engineer could be the problem here, and somebody has to be 'the adult' so you can take that responsibility by lowering your volume and/or bass eq.
I will say this- Most engineers mix way too loud for a given room. Rooms can handle alot of loudness from mid frequencies, but once the bass gets out of proportion, it can result in an ugly mess.
Kudos to you for having a conscience about your prescence in the sound of your group. I would also suspect that there are issues in your band with players who play too loud/don't listen well enough. But if you turn down a bit you'll see who the culprits are right away. Loudness is a war onstage sometimes, but it doesn't need to be. Good luck!
1. Cut your stage volume a bit.
2. Ask for some bass in your monitor.
3. Depending on how much the FOH is using (or overusing) the subs, attenuate the bass eq on your amp. This one is tough, because you have to try to feel what your sound is like in the crowd while you are on stage, and this can change with bodies in a room. Bottom line, the engineer could be the problem here, and somebody has to be 'the adult' so you can take that responsibility by lowering your volume and/or bass eq.
I will say this- Most engineers mix way too loud for a given room. Rooms can handle alot of loudness from mid frequencies, but once the bass gets out of proportion, it can result in an ugly mess.
Kudos to you for having a conscience about your prescence in the sound of your group. I would also suspect that there are issues in your band with players who play too loud/don't listen well enough. But if you turn down a bit you'll see who the culprits are right away. Loudness is a war onstage sometimes, but it doesn't need to be. Good luck!
my recommendation is to boost your midrange, depending on what amp you are using you could be experiencing a built end "mid scoop" it makes certain amps ideal for bed room shredding, but in the mix your bass will always sit in the midrange. I suggest getting a nice preamp with a direct out as well as an out to your amp. I use a dark glass b7k ultra and when I have to backline I alway just run direct into house sound. It saves me the Hastle of having to figure out someone else's (often inferior) gear. I like the dark glass because it has both high and low midrange fine tuning.
Hey pbass888,
I feel ya in the city with different backlines and FOH. I didn't read thru the whole thread but "hears" my take on your vid examples comparison. Your tone is on target, its real close to the recording. I don't think you need to cut or boost anything to the sound just "dampen the clarity" = roll off tone knob.
I like to keep it simple in those situations so all things the same, just roll back the tone to almost "0" (If you haven't already). I'm using both .047 and .1 cap (push/pull pot) on my jazz and the .47 gets me there for that sound.
I think this case (as illustrated in your vid clip) calls for a simple solution. As much as we'd like/try to, you're never gonna replicate a studio recording perfectly live. Ive been battling this for years on urban gospel gigs. Best you'll be able to do is try to replicate the tone/sound of the recording and get it up to level on stage. There will l be compromises for room, equipment, and FOH. So less is more, KIS, YMMV, yada yada yada, etc etc etc.
- Jan 26, 2014
- 1,525
- 1,946
- Disclosures
- I teach lessons and perform live music in and around San Diego CA. Sometimes I even make money doing it!
That's a fine live Reggae sound. Your title question is asking for a tighter sound, yet your sound is tight as a drum. If anything, it's too tight and clear, you could add some low end... or distortion as I mention above to thicken your sound without adding volume. You're at the mercy of FOH as well, but if you start with a "hi-fi" sound, you're not going to magically receive a lo-fi dub reggae sound from FOH. In the recording, as I also mentioned above, everything else is EQed out of your way. You're not going to replicate that in a club without a great sound system.
It's good to think about your identity as a band and as a part player in that band. You guys have a hi-fi sound, and it works for you. Your recorded bass tone might be low and tubby, but it's very hi-fi; compare it with the Catch a Fire bass tone. Jeez, what note is Family Man even playing in "Stir it Up?" It's not remotely in tune to modern standards but it still sounds great, but the notes are very punchy, (not to mention doubled by a guitar). The thickness of his tone comes through subtle distortion. I think your live tone is closer to a traditional reggae tone than your recording, which is almost keyboard-perfect sounding. So at this point I might be raising more questions that I'm answering, but perhaps you need to clarify your goals and critical thinking about your tone and what you're looking for. I don't think you're loonkg for a tighter sound, I think you're looking for a glassy, keyboard-like low-end from your bass. When I think that tone, there's really only one way to achieve it, and it's expensive: fresh, light gauge strings. Possibly a fresh set every gig if you want the glassiest tone. Completely anti-reggae in any traditional sense, but I bet it gets you sounding more like your recording.
At a slight tangent , but I am verging on obsessive for getting the low mids in focus.
Until recently I was using two MB 210 HF standard cabs stacked vertically with a Markbass TTE 500 head. this gave me decent scale and good mids.
I have for the last few gigs switched my top cab for a MB 210 Traveler cab and gone back to my MB LM III amp. This has given me even more mid focus and no real perceived loss of scale and weight.
I don't think anyone in the band really has noticed a big difference and I'm sure no one out front has heard any difference at all, but I have, and in a way that's all that matters.
Until recently I was using two MB 210 HF standard cabs stacked vertically with a Markbass TTE 500 head. this gave me decent scale and good mids.
I have for the last few gigs switched my top cab for a MB 210 Traveler cab and gone back to my MB LM III amp. This has given me even more mid focus and no real perceived loss of scale and weight.
I don't think anyone in the band really has noticed a big difference and I'm sure no one out front has heard any difference at all, but I have, and in a way that's all that matters.
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In this comparison, I think your tone sounds good in the live vid. The big thing that jumps out at me in the live vid is that the horns are waaaay up in the mix, and it is nearly impossible to hear the guitar, and keys, and even drums at times. I think what someone else mentioned about seeing who is too loud, or not listening can be a valuable exercise. I also realize that this is all at the hands of whoever is running sound, so there is limited control there. But, if your horn players can tell if they are getting mixed in too hot, they can adjust their positioning to the mics, and they will be doing the entire band a huge service. These are just my observations from being in bands with wildly varying types of instruments over the years, and playing everything from big outdoor festivals, to parking lots.
Hi, this is King Kolon! I perform mostly in Clubs. I fortunately have Six Different Bass Riggs. For Five String Players, SWR BigBen Cab. Single 18" JBL-155-4ohm Spkr. With a GenzBenz-Shuttle 90 behind it. Wow! 25hz.-3k-hz. That's the widest freq. response l have ever found In a Single Cab. Single Spkr.130db Output too. Dream Rig. If you're a Four Sting Bassist, then a 15"/bullet tweeter. Works really well. Or a good 2-12 cab. Does well also. Nowadays we need an Addiquate amount of Power and E-quing!
Paul Hendrix
Commercial User
Hi everyone, this is a beautiful discussion on my life-time work. Please excuse my bad grammar.
I read all contributions to the discussion and am amazed that so many extra pedals, E q's, preamp's etc. are advised. I am not selling my product here, but has anyone advised you to look at your pickups.
Bass players know that after sound checking the trouble starts, as soon as the whole band starts playing and the crowd is in. Most the time you have to turn down low, by doing so you throw away also all the good stuff in the bottom of the sound. No matter what music style you play.
In building bass guitar pickups I found out that eliminating all that rumble below 60 - 80 Hz and have the upper harmonics left in the spectrum, solves this kind of problems at the source.
Sound men love to ad some low in the FOH which can turn you crazy on stage. Low frequencies, as you know, go a long way, also back on stage where you are. The acoustic reflexions of the room are a giving, you can't rebuild the venue before a gig.
I own a 1964 P-Bass with an added J-Bass in the brdg, the scatter wound coils leaves little or no sub frequencies in the sound, it never, in any giving situation, left me in the cold.
So I development "Controlled Scatter Wound" winding patterns, that produce the sound of the end 1950 beginning 1960 period. By controlling the "scatter" it is possible to determine the low, mid and high frequencies. The spectrum is focused on loudness, measured in Phone, the way people hear, not what the figures on your spectrum analyzer say. The low is firm, growly mids and transparent high.
B.t.w. definition is not determined by mid frequencies, but by high frequences along with upper harmonics. Add some firm low and growly mids, between 250 and 700 Hz and you're good to go.
Kind regards from The Netherlands, Paul HendriX.
I read all contributions to the discussion and am amazed that so many extra pedals, E q's, preamp's etc. are advised. I am not selling my product here, but has anyone advised you to look at your pickups.
Bass players know that after sound checking the trouble starts, as soon as the whole band starts playing and the crowd is in. Most the time you have to turn down low, by doing so you throw away also all the good stuff in the bottom of the sound. No matter what music style you play.
In building bass guitar pickups I found out that eliminating all that rumble below 60 - 80 Hz and have the upper harmonics left in the spectrum, solves this kind of problems at the source.
Sound men love to ad some low in the FOH which can turn you crazy on stage. Low frequencies, as you know, go a long way, also back on stage where you are. The acoustic reflexions of the room are a giving, you can't rebuild the venue before a gig.
I own a 1964 P-Bass with an added J-Bass in the brdg, the scatter wound coils leaves little or no sub frequencies in the sound, it never, in any giving situation, left me in the cold.
So I development "Controlled Scatter Wound" winding patterns, that produce the sound of the end 1950 beginning 1960 period. By controlling the "scatter" it is possible to determine the low, mid and high frequencies. The spectrum is focused on loudness, measured in Phone, the way people hear, not what the figures on your spectrum analyzer say. The low is firm, growly mids and transparent high.
B.t.w. definition is not determined by mid frequencies, but by high frequences along with upper harmonics. Add some firm low and growly mids, between 250 and 700 Hz and you're good to go.
Kind regards from The Netherlands, Paul HendriX.
I found this out the hard way.
My old band Hexe practiced our set for months. All originals, in a melodic doom metal vein. We sounded epic in our practice space. We even had other folks in adjacent spaces compliment us on our tunes. Not common in rehearsal studios in East Oakland!
Well when we played our first show my tone strategy utterly failed. This was a two guitar band. Very loud. So I'd dialed up the low end to 'go under' the guitars. Sounded fantastic in a 20 x 30 studio. In a capacity 2000+ nightclub my bass just vanished off the stage, and the foldback wasn't helping me at all. Pretty much all that was audible was the upper midrange, with some light overdrive of a Mesa Bass 400 at full clip.
In small clubs you can count on quarter space and eighth space reinforcement of bass frequencies (you get half space reinforcement just for being on the floor, some festival type stages will rob you of this too!).
On a large stage with only a curtain behind the backline you are not getting any of that. The sound girl/guy can foldback your DI. But they are unlikely to give you much in the way of legit low end. They will want to commit whatever low end the monitors have to the kick drum. So unless you have old school side-fills with large woofers, you may just be out of luck.
So yeah, low mids.
My old band Hexe practiced our set for months. All originals, in a melodic doom metal vein. We sounded epic in our practice space. We even had other folks in adjacent spaces compliment us on our tunes. Not common in rehearsal studios in East Oakland!
Well when we played our first show my tone strategy utterly failed. This was a two guitar band. Very loud. So I'd dialed up the low end to 'go under' the guitars. Sounded fantastic in a 20 x 30 studio. In a capacity 2000+ nightclub my bass just vanished off the stage, and the foldback wasn't helping me at all. Pretty much all that was audible was the upper midrange, with some light overdrive of a Mesa Bass 400 at full clip.
In small clubs you can count on quarter space and eighth space reinforcement of bass frequencies (you get half space reinforcement just for being on the floor, some festival type stages will rob you of this too!).
On a large stage with only a curtain behind the backline you are not getting any of that. The sound girl/guy can foldback your DI. But they are unlikely to give you much in the way of legit low end. They will want to commit whatever low end the monitors have to the kick drum. So unless you have old school side-fills with large woofers, you may just be out of luck.
So yeah, low mids.
I too play a Jazz bass with nickel rounds in a reggae band. I understand the "I want all of the low-end womp without the mush" conundrum.
The short answer is that a good compressor and possibly an eq pedal will likely help you get a tighter, more focused sound.
The long answer is that you probably have a go-to setting on your amp that works well at home- I have a setting on my LittleMark tube 800 that sounds AWESOME- but it may not translate in certain spaces. When you set up for a gig, level your eq at 12 o'clock, and make adjustments from there during soundcheck. I play plenty of gigs without taking my pedalboard, and I can get a decent enough sound just by balancing the eq on my amp. Sometimes a tone that we think sounds garbage on its own actually comes out perfectly in a mix with your bandmates. Just be open to eq'ing it.
The short answer is that a good compressor and possibly an eq pedal will likely help you get a tighter, more focused sound.
The long answer is that you probably have a go-to setting on your amp that works well at home- I have a setting on my LittleMark tube 800 that sounds AWESOME- but it may not translate in certain spaces. When you set up for a gig, level your eq at 12 o'clock, and make adjustments from there during soundcheck. I play plenty of gigs without taking my pedalboard, and I can get a decent enough sound just by balancing the eq on my amp. Sometimes a tone that we think sounds garbage on its own actually comes out perfectly in a mix with your bandmates. Just be open to eq'ing it.
