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Looking for a 'tighter' sound live , especially low end
- Thread starter pbass888
- Start date
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
I was at this show. The bass sound out front was not as satisfying as one would hope. It was there but lacked that reggae bottom end.
I would second the use of a high pass filter, but only for on stage. The FOH guy needs the entire spectrum, all the way down to the very bottom. The very low end is crucial for a reggae sound.
I've discovered that a raised stage situation is never a good thing for bass players (if that's the case at your venue and sound folks aren't always on top of these sub frequencies). Absorbers would probably be good and fine tuned EQ with compression. I highly recommend The Empress, Keeley Compressor Pro or Dbx 160A rack mount for transparent compression.
Full disclosure I do artist relations with Kahler but I think I understand your problem, we hear this a lot. Watch this "before and after" video that NY bass player and teacher Charley Sabatino sent us - is this the kind of change you're looking for?
charlie sabatino kahler - YouTube
charlie sabatino kahler - YouTube
It's impossible, really, to nail a great, consistent and satisfying sound when playing a motley variety of spaces, some of which are not good for the bassist's sound (though they may be fine for the rest), even beyond the random backlines. You can't beat the mush when it's coming from the back of the room and not you : ) I agree with the strategy of sending the sound person your whole, un-eq'd signal and dialing back whatever works down low on your stage sound and clarifying mids so that it's better for you on stage and assuming/hoping/asking if the sound person is making it work in the room.
If the audience is hearing your bass primarily through the PA* you don't need gear as much as you need a system of communicating with the FOH engineer about your needs and preferences. A jazz bass through a Sadowsky pre is an engineer's dream: clean, fat, punchy, and honest. If an engineer can't make that sound good in the PA you're in for a long night...provided you're not fighting the FOH mix by having your amp too loud.
As for cleaning up the stage sound via the amp, the previous suggestions about cutting bass, decoupling the cabinet, boosting mids, getting the cabinet up at ear-level, etc. are all useful and I would only add from my perspective as an engineer, one last thing to avoid: falling into the volume trap. The louder your stage volume, the more it interacts with the PA and muddies the water. So all those adjustments to the amp should be primarily for hearing yourself on stage without engaging in volume wars with the guitar players which in turn causes the rest of the band to request more of themselves in the monitors and on it goes until everything is louder than everything else.
*If the bass cab is expected to do all the heavy lifting and fill the room there are two important things to do: the first is decouple the cab(s) from the stage. Typical club stages are hollow and have specific resonances that cause certain notes to shake the rafters, certain notes to disappear, and everything in between to turn to mush. The second thing is more difficult but more important: EQ your amp for the middle of the room, not for the stage. Bass cabs are technically pretty lousy as far as equal sound dispersion is concerned which means your tone is going to change dramatically from the stage to the middle of the room to the back of the room and from side to side. So you literally have to stand in the spot you want to sound the best, point your rig at that spot and EQ your rig for that spot. No it won't sound as good on stage but without PA support you gotta do what you gotta do.
As for cleaning up the stage sound via the amp, the previous suggestions about cutting bass, decoupling the cabinet, boosting mids, getting the cabinet up at ear-level, etc. are all useful and I would only add from my perspective as an engineer, one last thing to avoid: falling into the volume trap. The louder your stage volume, the more it interacts with the PA and muddies the water. So all those adjustments to the amp should be primarily for hearing yourself on stage without engaging in volume wars with the guitar players which in turn causes the rest of the band to request more of themselves in the monitors and on it goes until everything is louder than everything else.
*If the bass cab is expected to do all the heavy lifting and fill the room there are two important things to do: the first is decouple the cab(s) from the stage. Typical club stages are hollow and have specific resonances that cause certain notes to shake the rafters, certain notes to disappear, and everything in between to turn to mush. The second thing is more difficult but more important: EQ your amp for the middle of the room, not for the stage. Bass cabs are technically pretty lousy as far as equal sound dispersion is concerned which means your tone is going to change dramatically from the stage to the middle of the room to the back of the room and from side to side. So you literally have to stand in the spot you want to sound the best, point your rig at that spot and EQ your rig for that spot. No it won't sound as good on stage but without PA support you gotta do what you gotta do.
If possible, take your own small rig so you have the stage sound you're used to. DI that and let the sound guy handle the house mix.
- Jun 24, 2006
- 2,560
- 90
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: MTD basses and strings; Bergantino Amps & Cabs
If your 6x10 is a Berg, I would say dump the Ampeg and get a B|Amp. If it's not a Berg, well...I feel sorry for you. B|Amp and a 6x10 should do it, or perhaps 2 x NV115s. An adjustable hi-pass is built into the amp.
Cheers,
Cameron
Agreed, a good chance that you are bleeding into the monitors. When I'm doing my own sound I pull the bottom out of the monitor mix. Poof, boom mush disappears. The more mics in proximity the more pronounced. If you are tight with the same eq elsewhere I would check the mix. If you are running through FOH and it sounds good,?just get a stage mix that is clear
I use my Moollon 70s style classic 4 rather than my 60s jazz basses. It has a much tighter bottom that cuts!
I've used the Auralex Gramma pads a lot - they're especially nice on a hollow stages or one of these temporary folding stages common for outdoor events. I've unintentionally sold 2 or 3 of them - I bring one to a gig and somebody tries it and buys it from me - which is kinda funny since I have no association with the company and don't normally sell gear.
I completely understand. I play funk and mute some of my notes for a percussive sound that requires a tight tone - but I like a big, fat, deep tone too, which is somewhat contradictory and hard to achieve with most amps. It's easy to get a deep tone but most amps get mushy, like you mentioned. I Ampeg too but switched to Aguilar a few years ago and am now a huge die hard fan.
I use a DB750 head with an 8 ohm single 15" cabinet (DB115) combined with an 8 ohm 4-10" cabinet (DB410) and get a very tight and punchy tone that is also very deep and fat. The 4-10" cab gives me the punch and the 1-15" cab gives me the deep, fat sound. They are a great combo. I also have a 4 ohm Aguilar 4-10" cabinet when I only need one cabinet. I lose some of the fatness without the 1-15" cab but in small rooms it's surprisingly deep with just the 4'10" cab. The DB750 likes a 4 ohm load for higher output so that's always my goal.
I play a American Standard Deluxe (active) Jazz Bass 5-string with a Sadowsky onboard preamp - and use that low B string a lot in gospel music. I play in a gospel funk band and one of the synth players said he used to double some of the former bass player's parts to add a deep sound but no longer feels compelled to do so because I have such a deep tone.
The DB750 head is the older version of the DB751 that is available now. I specifically bought the DB750, though, because it has the old tube sound but I suspect the newer DB751 is great too. I also have a Mark Bass Nano amp that I use for really small rooms and rehearsals. Although it sounds really good it is not a tight and punchy as the Aguilar head. The DB750 head is big and heavy so a lot guys no longer want to deal with the size and weight. If I could get the Aguilar punchy sound from a lightweight amp I would switch too but until I hear a small head sounding like the Aguilar I will endure the weight and size. It might exist but I haven't heard one yet.
I tried to reduce the weight by buying an Aguilar neo 4-10" cabinet but didn't like it as much as the old fashioned heavy magnet 4-10" speakers so I took it back and exchanged it for the traditional (heavy) speakers.
Aguilar is not carried by a lot of stores so that is a challenge - and it's not cheap! Guitar Center can get Aguilar equipment by special order, which took about a month to receive. They even shipped my heavy cabinets at no cost. Hope this helps!
Hey man...I have felt your pain!
Here's a few things to try: the fdeck is great- I use it for both my electric and upright basses on live gigs; maybe playing farther back near the bridge with plucking hand; pop those lower mids on your EQ- but not too much- you still want a Robbie/Sly sound, right and need that phatness to keep the rubber in the groove; check your drummers EQ ( especially on bass drum and toms!!!) And additionally with any other instruments that dwell in the bass's spectral range..this sonic problem is also an arranging issue, and often gets blamed on the instrument 'bass,' rather than the idea of frequencies; ever try a pick?; the Jamerson and Kaye trick of a hunk of foam right down near the bridge does some pretty neat things; raise your string action away from your pickups. I also use a high quality tube compressor in the front of my signal chain.
Just a few to try. The studio sound is so controlled, whereas in the acoustic world there are SO many variables.
First of all hearing what gear you play makes me highly envious... sweet stuff man. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know... The J-bass can be superbitchy to eq... and you don't want to spend too much time eqing only to discover that turning your tone pot only so slightly obliterates all your tweaking... and that the hall sounds completely different when it's full of people than it did at soundcheck!!
I'd go for a preamp pedal (not sure how well active mods work, I hate to worry about batteries...) I've been impressed by a boosting compressor I've seen used by Kinga Glyk... g-lab or something...
Cheers
Frederick
I've played a stock '59 Kay upright in a room that had subwoofers in the stage floor. There I used one Auralex Gramma for the amp, and one to keep the subs from rumbling up through the bass endpin. It worked well.
I think ampegs sound is a looser opd school sound, not tight and springy and modern. I had an Ampeg SVT 3pro head through a crate 4x10 deep cab. Ten inch speakers are inherently tight. Your amp may be the soft pert of this but like i said ampeg sound is a more old school woofy sound. I dont like it because ampeg amps are a one trick pony. They have svt tone and thats it. If your 6x10 dosnt belong to you dont buy it get 4x10's front vent and a tighter amp. Many things acan effect stage bass sound. If youre always going through the pa, thats where you need to taylor your sound.
If you are looking for a nice addition to your gear get the Bass Fly Rig by Tech 21. I am NOT a pedal guy, I never use them but this little thing is worth every penny I can just bring it with me and any place I go I get to dial in the sound I want and it's also a direct box. If you want a little bit of compression a little bit of fuzz or just want to be able to dial your EQ this is the way to go.
This is a strange comment. Bass cabinets are not different than most other kinds of cabs aside from the role they play.
Most modern cabs are essentially PA cabinets. Woofer+crossover+tweeter.
Starting at the bottom, bass frequencies are essentially omnidirectional. You are going to be getting the same amount of low end in every direction from that cabinet. This is good and bad. If your low end is cranked, you may be driving the drummer crazy so you can get heard out front.
Also, since bass is omnidirectional, your bass energy is dissipating in every direction, while the guitars, keys and such are midrange focussed and spend little energy, pointing in a narrow angle of say 45 degrees. And are heard fine by everyone.
In the midrange drivers tend to beam. Or shoot a narrow dispersion of 10-20 degrees. Oddly a 15" will beam narrower than a 12" or ten usually, since it's voice coil is set much farther back.
Then as you get into the tweeter's range the high mids and treble will often have very wide, almost 180 degree dispersion.
Now this is all presuming a single woofer and tweeter.
When you get into several speakers like a 4x10, with a tweeter in the middle, you actually get very consistent dispersion if the cab is high enough(and well engineered).
Also a pair of 2x10 or 2x12 on their side tend to carry quite well. With decent dispersion.
Still, whatever cab you use, the low end is going to be tricky. I've always sought out walls and corners of rooms when possible to help corner load or quarter-space load the room.
This wont work on festival stages or theater style stage with a scrim/curtain behind the band. But in clubs and similar venues it works wonders.
When I was first coming up in reggae bands in the early 2000s, I would always end up with an SVT + Fridge as a backline and I hated it. I hated that baked in Ampeg mid-hump voice. It was directly opposed to the tones I was trying to hit for reggae. Not only could I not seem to tame that mid hump, I couldn't get the low end where I wanted it for reggae. Of course whenever I'd complain about it, everyone (even non bassists) would have to chime in about how stoked most people would be to play on an SVT and that there's a reason they are the industry standard, blah blah blah. That just made me hate Ampegs more. Now I wish I had one for my own studio work, as Ampeg + P Bass + Pick is a tone I keep seeming to reach for on certain songs.
