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Double Bass Looking for volume control and going down the preamp rabbit hole

AntonLargiader

AntonLargiader

Sep 8, 2011
71
6
Charlottesville, VA
www.largiader.com
#1
I have a '83 Engelhardt with a Realist pickup. I rarely gig, and mostly play at our weekly jam but I am amplifying more and more these days. At gigs I'm plugged into a PA but for small stuff I plug into a cheap Crate amp. I leave the amp in the back of the room and it's not easy to adjust the volume.

The Docking Station looks like a great, simple volume control. There is hardly ANYTHING online about using one, other than a thread here a few years ago (when it was introduced) where some guys thought it wouldn't work well but had never actually seen one. It's simple and small. Practically invisible. $90. Made for pickups like the Realist.

A friend offered me a Pro EQ 2. That got me looking at preamps and all of the newer Fishman stuff. BTW the stickies are pretty much obsolete; Fishman only sells two models now for UB: the Platinum Stage EQ ($150, three bands EQ) and the Platinum Pro EQ ($300, adds notch, low-cut, boost, compressor, and tuner). The Pro EQ Platinum Bass, Pro EQ and Pro EQ 2 are discontinued.

I think I'm best off with the Docking Station because I'm basically after volume control and I don't want to bring a pedal or a big belt-mounted rig into the jam where no one else is plugged in. The attraction to the preamps is that the sound I get isn't that great. It's actually quite far from great, and as a technology fan I'm into the idea of using it to improve things in general. I strongly suspect that I could get better sound from that Crate (and any other rig) with a nice preamp. But I probably don't really need to.

Has anyone else been here? Anyone using the Docking Station?
 
#4
The docking station is a lower resistance (read impedance) potentiometer. If you use it it is like you go from a high input impedance amp to a low input impedance amp by using it.
Any volume control only makes sense following a high impedance buffer and the most simple and clean one is a HPFpre.

There is a bypass in the docking station that disconnects the potentiometer for a undisturbed pass-through, so it might sound good in that position, but then you don't have any volume control. And that way you don't need that thing at all.

For a passive piezo pickup a passive volume control doesn't make sense, since the available potentiometers are not available in MegOhms resistance values and if they would be, the output signal would be weak and sensitive to electrical noise.
 
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#7
I use the Fishman Plat Stage. It has a low cut and some other basic features. I don't clip it on my belt, it just sits on top of my amp. Long cable goes from my realist to my fishman, which sits atop the amp. Short cable goes from fishman into combo amp. You get it adjusted to where you like and leave it alone after that. The fishman is fairly small/light so i would think you could attach it to the tailpiece too if you wanted.

I do make a point to keep the amp close to me though, so i can always lean over and make small adjustments if needed. It is usually diagonally behind me on my right.
 
#8
The two Fishman units were what I had looked at before I posted this thread. They are nice looking units and seem well made. Still, the Stage is considerably bigger than the fDeck units:

Stage: 5.6 x 3.3 x 1.2
HPF 2M: 4.4 x 2.3 x 1.1 or slightly smaller, to the best of my knowledge. That's the size that he originally intended the version 3 to be and that's all I know. The dimensions aren't published.

For me it's a decision between volume control (my original need) and full blown preamp with tone shaping. I think I can get by with the former for now, and I'm happy about the smaller size and simplicity of the HPF-Pre. If I need the latter, I'll be considering the Platinum as well as the Stage because if I'm going big I might as well have a pedal for boost, tuner, and all of that.
 
#9
I wanted a volume control close by and wanted something that wouldn't add too much color to the sound. I ordered the HPF-Pre 3. It's really working out well especially with control of feedback.

I tried velcro and on the quiver but wasn't totally happy with either solution (though both worked fine). I ordered a belt clip and put it on the pre and wear it hanging on my pocket. So far so good as long as I remember I'm wearing it and don't pull out the cords by stepping on them :)

Here's a link to the clip I bought though there may be other options which you might like better.

Invalid Link Removed
 
#10
AntonLargiader said:
The two Fishman units were what I had looked at before I posted this thread. They are nice looking units and seem well made. Still, the Stage is considerably bigger than the fDeck units:

Stage: 5.6 x 3.3 x 1.2
HPF 2M: 4.4 x 2.3 x 1.1 or slightly smaller, to the best of my knowledge. That's the size that he originally intended the version 3 to be and that's all I know. The dimensions aren't published.

For me it's a decision between volume control (my original need) and full blown preamp with tone shaping. I think I can get by with the former for now, and I'm happy about the smaller size and simplicity of the HPF-Pre. If I need the latter, I'll be considering the Platinum as well as the Stage because if I'm going big I might as well have a pedal for boost, tuner, and all of that.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Honestly i usually don't use a pre at all, and plug my realist direct to the amp. GK amps tend to take the signal well. I then cut lows via amp EQ. But i keep the amp close by for volume control.
 
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#13
if you are thinking about getting the Fdeck Series 2, then I would recommend the plastic body - especially if you are considering mounting it on your bass. The plastic body is lighter weight and less likely to scratch your bass.

I have the Fdeck 2 and Fdeck 3. I recommend the Fdeck 2 for upright bass. @fdeck may be able to help provide more info on the sizing.
 
#14
I play a '54 Kay C1 and I have had great success facing this issue with 2 inexpensive devices.
The Taylor V-Cable - a great cable with a built in volume pot:
Invalid Link Removed

I plug the volume pot end into the Realist input that is mounted under the bridge of my bass so it's always adjustable.

Vcable.png


As for Eq/Boost and Control I love the SansAmp Paradriver - though of course the SansAmp Bass Driver may be preferred at TB. But I love the Paradriver because it gives me great control, volume and eq without needing a power supply.
ParaDriver-xlarge.jpg


I plug this into a Phil Jones Double Four and it sounds amazing! (and the PJD4 is only 70 watts and I get just enough volume playing bluegrass, jazz, swing or whatever....)

Double Four.jpg
 
#15
silvertone said:
I plug the volume pot end into the Realist input that is mounted under the bridge of my bass so it's always adjustable.
Click to expand...
That at you lower the impedance drastically and need to enhance the bad signal to something more or less usable.
Never put a pot directly behind a passive piezo pickup. That kills the sound. Always an impedance buffer first followed the volume pot.

That pot cable might work with electromagnetic pickups (but even there the sound might change a bit), but with piezos this is a bad idea.

Not that you cannot do that, you can, but the sound will suffer and no EQ following it can neutralize what the low impedance distorts.
 
#16
Double Midi - clearly you have technical knowledge I sorely lack - but to my ears - all I am seeking is a solid fundamental bass tonality out of the instrument. Regardless of whether my rig is technically correct, I get a lot of compliments on my bass tone when I use this set up - at nearly every gig.
 
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#17
What I have experienced with a low input impedance is hat the sound gets worse the more you dig into the string to play louder. The higher output amplitude needs a higher current and that could not be delivered because of the high inherent resistance of the piezo, so the signal gets distorted since that high signal levels will break down.

Try to check that. Maybe record the amp output, and listen after you played soft and loud. It has nothing to do with the amp volume, only with the acoustic volume of your bass.

And if you are happy with your sound, that's OK.
But since many players read here, a warning what usually does happen with the sound if you use a potentiometer directly behind an unbuffered piezo can help them to avoid questionable decisions.

Anyway, maybe the sound of the Realist doesn't suffer that much, but since a lot of higher frequency content is not present in the Realist signal, the distortion might not be that disturbing. On the other hand I would never use a Realist because of the sound it delivers.
 
#18
Perhaps this is a misunderstanding in terms of signal path routing.

From the Piezo pup (Realist) I take a High impedance signal into the Taylor V cable (w the pot). I suppose you are saying the Realist has an inherently low impedence signal, but that makes no sense since it has a high impedence output in the form of a female 1/4 inch output jack. From there it goes into the SansAmp Paradriver and I route the output through the high impedance jack into my PJD4 amp. On occasion I'll also route the signal to a PA or Desk via the low impedance 3 pin output of the SansAmp.

I also have a Troll Ribbon Mic on my bass - but I only use it on rare occasions (for recording or when there is a dedicated engineer mixing sound) and I like to blend the Realist with the Troll.
 
#19
Not low impedance, low output current which is the same as high output impedance.
Low output impedance and high input impedance does work, but the opposite, like in your case and any passive piezo (that inherently has a high output impedance) and low input impedance following the high output impedance (like in a low input impedance effect, low nut impedance preamp/amp or passive volume pot) will reduce the amplitude and distort the signal.
 

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