My GK400rb in one Flite 15 cuts through the loudest of guitarists with a Geddy Lee Jazz bass.
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Loud Guitarists, What are my Amp Options?
- Thread starter twc1313
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Just a couple of ideas.
Sometime when they aren't looking, disconnect 2 speakers, or preferably 3 each.
Change your EQ to a straight flat, then crank your rig... a lot
Seriously, 800 watts into 4-10s of bass vs 200 watts (I'm assuming) into 8-12s of guitar leaves you under gunned. Another 4-10 cab will certainly help, assuming your amp can handle the ohmage load.
One other piece of equipment you absolutely need are ear filters fitted by an audiologist. These are not ear plugs. Pretty much they cut all frequencies evenly so music sound more natural, just less of it. You need do this, or get used to saying "What?" a lot.
Man, 2 Marshall amps with 412, I'm surprised the drummer isn't complaining.
- Oct 18, 2012
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The reason your guitarists are turning up with each set is probably due to what is called "Slope Hearing Loss". When exposed to loud music, people usually lose high frequencies first. Sometimes, it's temporary but it become permanent after repeated exposure or after one incident that is excessively loud. Your guitarists are probably losing the ability to hear some of the high frequencies so they are turning up in order to compensate.
Tell them to turn down. Otherwise, your hearing is going to be damaged from the long term affect of being exposed to your band playing louder than you have to. I have two friends who are great musicians and had to stop playing due to hearing loss and tinnitus.
A great band that is too loud will send people to the exits faster than an average band playing at an acceptable volume. There is no reason to be excessively loud.
Tell them to turn down. Otherwise, your hearing is going to be damaged from the long term affect of being exposed to your band playing louder than you have to. I have two friends who are great musicians and had to stop playing due to hearing loss and tinnitus.
A great band that is too loud will send people to the exits faster than an average band playing at an acceptable volume. There is no reason to be excessively loud.
If possible, try stacking your 210s vertically and try focusing more on the upper midrange of your eq. In all honesty, if you've had the talk with them and they refuse to change their on stage tone/volume, I think you should really consider whether or not you want to be in a band with such inconsiderate band mates.
if I went to a bar and the band was so loud I got hearing damage from trying to order a beer I'd leave and tell the owner why. How are you still getting gigs with these wankers?
Use good ear plugs and wait for them to go completely deaf (which will be soon)then get 2 responsible guitarist to replace them. Bide your time. Save YOUR hearing.
Ric5
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- Jan 29, 2008
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This has nothing to do with volume. I doubt your guitarists can hear what you are playing so they don't know and don't care whether you are playing great or horribly, if your bass sounds wonderful or terrible. Why waste your time trying to get the best technique and gear you can when neither you nor anyone else will hear it? Your bandmates do not know how to treat you professionally and with respect. All the amps and speakers in the world are not going to change that.
Invest in some ear plugs. Take it from someone who has a bit of hearing loss.
Diagonal cutters are the simplest and most effective solution.
The most important thing in my opinion is to protect your hearing, so definitely get some ear plugs and use them. I will be totally candid, wearing ear plugs sucks, but developing tinnitus and losing your hearing sucks more.
Instead of trying to compete with the guitar amps, I would suggest that you focus on setting up your rig so you can hear better. If your idea is to have a big booming low end then it's sort of a lost cause, because low frequencies are omnidirectional, so they spread out in all directions and cause a lot of mischief. The higher frequencies coming from your cabs are more directional so you can use this to your advantage. Basically the idea is to aim the sound where you can hear it, but it does not impact others and cause them to want to turn up even more. You can try multiple approaches:
1. Tilt your cab back and aim it at your ears. This simply ensures you hear the full range of frequencies your cab produces, so your bass cuts through better.
2. Elevate your cab and tilt it back to aim at your ears. This ensures the shortest possible path between the speaker and your ears, so the SPL will be slightly higher. There will also be a bit of a dip on the low mids due to cancellation between the direct sound and the reflected sound from the floor. This is called the boundary effect if you want to read about it. Basically the max cancellation occurs at the frequency where the distance between acoustic center of your cab and the floor is 1/4 wavelength.
3. Place one cab in behind you and one cab in front of you tilted back to aim at your ears. If you stand equidistant from bad cabs you will have the perception of being surrounded by sound. However if you rig is expected to push the room, the separation between the two cabs will setup negative interference patterns called comb filtering that cause your sound to be uneven out in the audience chamber.
The best solution is to somehow convince the guitar players to turn down and run and HPF, but my guess is that is not going to happen. I own a Marshall 1959 and 2203, and also 1960AX and 1960BX cabs. I totally get how intoxicating and addictive it sounds and feels to crank up a Marshall full stack. But it's sort of like bedroom tone with bass. It sounds awesome when your playing by yourself, but it's not generally the best choice for ensemble playing. Actually a cranked full stack is sort of the opposite of bedroom tone. A bass with bedroom tone will tend to disappear in the context of a mix. A cranked Marshall will tend to dominate and conceal pretty much everything unless the guitarist learns to use a bit of restraint, judgement, and discretion.
My advice is don't play their game. Try to adjust your setup so you can hear better without contributing to the mayhem. And if the guitarist insist on making the playing experience totall unbearable, walk. Obnoxiously loud guitarists tend to be a dime a dozen.
@Stumbo 's advice to use an HPF is also good. Your amp will most likley produce a lot of power below bandpass of your speakers. This wastes power and forces your speakers to jump around. Using an HPF can tighten up your sound and give your rig more headroom.
As previously mentioned - mids! No scooped bass sound with loud and distorted guitars. Use bright roundwounds and either use the p-bass or use the jazz with the bridge dimed and the neck at around 70-80% and tone full up (both basses). Figure out what flat looks like for your amp (most likely not all the knobs at noon) and then add some more mids. The stacked 210s may be better since the top cab is closer to your ears. Be sure to stack them vertically. More speakers is better than more wattage.
Also - the most important point bar none - wear really good ear protection!!!! Ear plugs also usually cut more guitar frequencies than bass frequencies, so added bonus to protecting your hearing.
Also - the most important point bar none - wear really good ear protection!!!! Ear plugs also usually cut more guitar frequencies than bass frequencies, so added bonus to protecting your hearing.
get something to elevate or tilt both your and their cabinets, or stack your 210's vertically like others have mentioned, I.E. bring the speakers closer to ear level rather than waist level, .. 800W out of 4 10" speakers should be way more than enough. In ear monitors are an awesome option but rather pricey. boosting your mids can help, but ultimately - the audience will probably be able to actually hear you guys better if you manage to turn down.
How close do these guys stand to their amps? if it's flat on the floor.. they should try playing about 6-8' foot in front of their amps when possible. Standing right next to a speaker cabinet or combo that's flat on the floor will sound muddier than if you get further away from it. Elevating it closer to ear level will have a similar effect even when standing close.
If you can't get them to try any of this.. keep your eye out for new folks to play with imo..
How close do these guys stand to their amps? if it's flat on the floor.. they should try playing about 6-8' foot in front of their amps when possible. Standing right next to a speaker cabinet or combo that's flat on the floor will sound muddier than if you get further away from it. Elevating it closer to ear level will have a similar effect even when standing close.
If you can't get them to try any of this.. keep your eye out for new folks to play with imo..
Ric5
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Just put up a cardboard cutout of a bass player on stage and no one will know the difference
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Step 1: Get proper moulded ear plugs. At least -26dB.
Step 2: If your guitarists are taking over your frequencies, go clearer and better defined.
I use a 700 watt Aguilar amp with a very loud guitarist (Twin Reverb with uprated speakers) and my Barefaced Super Compact and Super Midget cut right through. I also wear moulded plugs on every gig.
Step 2: If your guitarists are taking over your frequencies, go clearer and better defined.
I use a 700 watt Aguilar amp with a very loud guitarist (Twin Reverb with uprated speakers) and my Barefaced Super Compact and Super Midget cut right through. I also wear moulded plugs on every gig.
I play with 2 guitarists each running an 8x12 stack with a krank rev 1(tube monster)... I'm just running a 2x15 genz benz and a Mesa d800+... with an Epiphone eb-3...Of course I'm running a compressor, overdrive, and cranked pregain always...but, it's more about how I'm eq'd... I have zero issue... As a matter of fact I get the whole "you're too loud, I can't hear myself" from time to time from the guitars... Guess that means I won the war lol...
I learned long ago that I had to have the ability to raise my bass to uncomfortable levels for the guitar players (basically bury them). First experiences was a 1966 Fender Bassman (50-watt all-tube w/ 212 cab) that worked fine on tour in the early 70's until the guitarist and keyboardist bought Vox Super Beatle amps. Kept being told to turn up at gigs to volumes that just made the speakers fart out.
So I traded it in for a Standel amp (~1971) that was louder than either the acoustic 360/361 or the Ampeg SVT with fridge. That solved the problem even though I had to run it at comparatively low levels - volume on #3 (9 o'clock) indoors. Once you are able to bury them, that problem goes away and they start playing at more reasonable levels. Unfortunately, all that gear was stolen in 1976 along with my 1965 Fender Jazz Bass.
Now I use an 800-watt Eden amp driving a single DNS-410 cab by DNA and I fear no Marshall 4x12 double stacks and I don't need to haul around an 810 cab either. The amp is super clear, warm, full, and articulate. The cab is ungodly LOUD! It's SPL is rated at 106db @ 1-watt/1-meter. Odds are that's only on one frequency (usually 1K in most manufacturer's specs). To my knowledge only Mesa tests cabs with multiple frequencies and published an average SPL. Nonetheless, in real-world use, this cab is CRAZY loud.
I can't run my master over 9:30 indoors or outdoors unless the outdoors has a LOT of open area. When playing outdoor festivals I can run the master up to 10 o'clock. On top of the high volumes it produces, it is also the clearest, most articulate cab I've ever heard and it has a really tight low-end. Power handling is 1400-watts both thermally and mechanically. Maximum SPL is 137db and you wouldn't want to be anywhere near it at those levels.
I play in a couple of groups. One is a 5-pc with mic'd drums, two guitarist, keyboardist and myself on bass. the other is a Blues/Rock trio. I can bury either of them any time I want, although that is not what I want to do. I want to present well balanced instrumentation with clear vocals above that. That DNS-410 cab allows me that option regardless of what anyone else is playing through.
It's not cheap. Street price is right around $1049. Here's what I'm using:
By the way, I will dial in the room where we play so that I get a "flat" sound and then I'll dial in about 2 to 3 clicks of boost at ~250Hz. That gives me great definition and chest thump in the mix.
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