Louder Rig

[Bassmann79]

I'm sorry but if you cannot be "heard" through a 4x10 cabinet then the volume needs to come way down.

Your tone needs to be one that cuts through but I am not familiar with GK gear and no clue what bass you play or how you play it (finger/pick)

Doubling another 4x10 would be ideal

 

[Gearhead17]

Looks like a complicated problem.

You have a mismatched situation here.
Without consideration of the fact that you need 2x the sum of the Guitarists total power to be at the same volume, you are somewhat ham strung, in this opinion, by the fact that you have less surface area in each of your transducers.
Laying that aside,
You have an 800W cabinet driven by a 480W head.
You are seriously underpowered from the cabinet's perspective, but have plenty of head room against 2x 100W Marshall Halfstacks, if that is what they are running,
If they are running Halfstacks off of 800W Marshalls you are going to be in for ride, because you have only a quarter of the power you need and your surface area is a whole lot less than what they have.
See what they have really first.
Estimation right now is that a little more power between 8-4 ohms by increasing speakers is not going to be as happy a place as a better matched Power Section to the Cabinet you already have.
In brief: You have no idea what you really have until you get 800W into the 800W Cabinet that you already have. This is written despite a prejudice against 10" transducers making the frequency range below the guitarist and not getting lost.
We have seen a Guitard running 200W S/S into 24 12" and fire a Bassist for being too loud when he was running 425 into 2 x 12".
Without 800W of Power into your 800W@8Ohm cabinet, there is no possilbe way to say you do not have enough cabinet. With 2 cabinets you are still under-powered.
We are not going to under-estimate the power of POWWWWA!

I understand where you are coming from, but watts do not equal loudness. It really comes down to the tone you are trying to convey and the cabinets you have. If the OP gets another 410 and uses the Boost knob appropriately and keeps the Contour knob all the way to the left, he has a very good chance to cut through the other guitar players. Also, if the guitar players are pushing the "smiley-face tone", the OP merely needs to push enough midrange frequencies, 200hz to 1khz, and keep the low end at non-crazy level to be heard on stage. It's all about frequency slotting and finding the right cabinet.

 

[villhelmromero]

the band I play bass in is a hardcore band and the band I play guitar in is a death metal band. So I know where you are coming from and what you're dealing with. Trust me balancing the sound at practice definitely helps and works great.

 

[guitarflinger]

I currently play through a GK 700Rb with a GK Neo 410. My band (death metal) just added a 2nd guitarist, so i'm now competing with 2 half stacks. I'm looking at adding a second cabinet to get a 4ohm load from my head, but wanted to get some opinions about the different GK cabs.

1. I wanted to get a Neo 210, but I just found out they were discontinued. Ampeg makes one but it's more expensive than the 410 I have now. Is the Ampeg Pro Neo worth the money?

2. Should I just add another 410, or would a 212/115 be more beneficial to my "sound"? I like lots of midrange and lots of volume. I'm aware of the arguments between the different speaker sizes, and that I should pick what sounds best to me. I've already checked Guitar center and I'd have to special order a cabinet. I'd like to know what would be my best bet before I have them order something in.
Thanks dudes.

My thought would be: buy another GK head and 3 more GK 410 cabs. Position one stack behind you so you can hear yourself. Point the other stack at the guitards - They turn up, you turn up. Problem solved (plus looks great)

 

[Braden Persch]

Looks like a complicated problem.

You have a mismatched situation here.

Without consideration of the fact that you need 2x the sum of the Guitarists total power to be at the same volume, you are somewhat ham strung, in this opinion, by the fact that you have less surface area in each of your transducers.

Laying that aside,

You have an 800W cabinet driven by a 480W head.

You are seriously underpowered from the cabinet's perspective, but have plenty of head room against 2x 100W Marshall Halfstacks, if that is what they are running,

If they are running Halfstacks off of 800W Marshalls you are going to be in for ride, because you have only a quarter of the power you need and your surface area is a whole lot less than what they have.

See what they have really first.

Estimation right now is that a little more power between 8-4 ohms by increasing speakers is not going to be as happy a place as a better matched Power Section to the Cabinet you already have.

In brief: You have no idea what you really have until you get 800W into the 800W Cabinet that you already have. This is written despite a prejudice against 10" transducers making the frequency range below the guitarist and not getting lost.

We have seen a Guitard running 200W S/S into 24 12" and fire a Bassist for being too loud when he was running 425 into 2 x 12".

Without 800W of Power into your 800W@8Ohm cabinet, there is no possilbe way to say you do not have enough cabinet. With 2 cabinets you are still under-powered.

We are not going to under-estimate the power of POWWWWA!

I know I'm underpowered, and the goal was to get a new head pretty soon also. A 1001Rb or maybe a 2001, sometimes overkill is good. I figure more wattage and more speakers will give me some more volume until I get a higher powered head. I'm slightly paranoid/scared of pumping more power into this cab as I've already blown a 410 prior to getting the GK rig.

The guitards both play 150 watt Line 6 stacks. We practice at my place so all the gear is in my basement, I took the pleasure of EQ'ing (smiley face) their amps for them. They aren't stubborn about volume so hopefully everything works out.

 

[1954bassman]

Death Metal bass players usually play a Gibson SG thought a 10000 mega watt amp.

All the bass player needs is a picture of a fridge and a SXMstar bass. Don't even need a cord.

 

[JD Long]

As written above, your underpower issue is probably why you are blowing speakers.
Buy more speakers and you will be replacing more speakers.

Dirty power is the problem if you a blowing 800W cabs with 4-500W heads.

 

[obimark]

Welcome to volume wars, it has no end until you drop out of it.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

As written above, your underpower issue is probably why you are blowing speakers.
Buy more speakers and you will be replacing more speakers.

Dirty power is the problem if you a blowing 800W cabs with 4-500W heads.

Sorry, but this info is false.

There is no such thing as "underpowering", and it does NOT damage speakers.

The reason he is blowing 800w cabs with 4-500w amps is not "dirty power", it is caused by:

Speaker ratings are THERMAL, real world bass frequency rating is about 1/2 that. Putting 800w of bass into an 800w cab usually results in ejection of the cone/coils through the grill.

A 4-500w head when pushed can produce 800-1,000w.

The OP's problem will be better served by adding additional speakers.

 

[SunnBass]

1) "underpowering" is a myth.
2) You want more volume, add more speakers.

The 700RB is a capable amp, get it running at 4ohms and you'll be good.
Stick with adding another 410.
I currently run a 700RB into a GK Neo 412 (480 watts into 1200 watt handling cab) definitely not "underpowered". My volume is never past 10 o'clock and I have more than enough volume to power thru 2 drummers, 500 watts of keyboards thru 2x810 cabs, and a full stack JCM 800.

Also, look at your EQ'ing. Be sure your mids aren't scooped and bass not boosted. This is key to being heard and cutting thru.

In closing, "underpowering" a cab is a myth.

 

[vmabus]

Add another one,
just like the other one.

 

[SunnBass]

As written above, your underpower issue is probably why you are blowing speakers.
Buy more speakers and you will be replacing more speakers.

Dirty power is the problem if you a blowing 800W cabs with 4-500W heads.

More than likely EQ'ING is blowing speakers. No such thing as "underpowering". If there was, speakers would blow when not hooked to anything.
Now, bass frequencies boosted, forcing speakers past their xmax, that blows speakers.

 

[Braden Persch]

As written above, your underpower issue is probably why you are blowing speakers.
Buy more speakers and you will be replacing more speakers.

Dirty power is the problem if you a blowing 800W cabs with 4-500W heads.

Same head, 320 watts @ 8 ohms and I was using a 400 watt cab. The boost knob was cranked too much, it farted and blew. I know what I did wrong, I learned my lesson and I got the 800 watt cab, but I'm still cautious with my gear.

 

[DwaynieAD]

I currently play through a GK 700Rb with a GK Neo 410. My band (death metal) just added a 2nd guitarist, so i'm now competing with 2 half stacks. I'm looking at adding a second cabinet to get a 4ohm load from my head, but wanted to get some opinions about the different GK cabs.

1. I wanted to get a Neo 210, but I just found out they were discontinued. Ampeg makes one but it's more expensive than the 410 I have now. Is the Ampeg Pro Neo worth the money?

2. Should I just add another 410, or would a 212/115 be more beneficial to my "sound"? I like lots of midrange and lots of volume. I'm aware of the arguments between the different speaker sizes, and that I should pick what sounds best to me. I've already checked Guitar center and I'd have to special order a cabinet. I'd like to know what would be my best bet before I have them order something in.
Thanks dudes.

You need to learn to eq properly, that rig should have no problems.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Part of the problem with deaf medal guitards is they crank the bottom end so they are stomping on your turf regardless of how much volume you have vs. them.

 

[JD Long]

Underpowering is not a myth when you are pushing the Bass Amp to 9 and 10 positions on the volume knob reaching for 11. This is how the guitar distortion from the Amplifier is made, A in the Preamp Section and then 2, in the Power Section itself,

It was commonly known in the past that the power sections of amps started to create direct current type power at the upper ends of operation and that attribute of the power would arc off the coil and thus "blow" the coil by an actual burn.

If this was a myth, then guitarists would not seek the higher powered distortion events and effects from cranking the Amp up, they would instead be cranking the power section down against the wide open preamp section. But then again, I could be wrong about that eh?

Long ago we had a system we worked where the band leader insisted on running 4 EV 12Ls with one side of a Peavey CS8400 Amp. We were regularly replacing EV 12 L voice coils on that rig,

Meanwhile he was running 4 Gauss 18" speakers with one side of the CS800. On that side of the amp we were daily replacing power transistors that were being melted as the Gauss speakers could be plugged into 110v from the wall without melting the voice coils. Something had to die and the transistors were the weakest link, the end.

Cone extrusion is another thing completely where wattage and frequency collide to flab the cone forward. Never seen a grill need to hold an extrusion back.

The amps we have been working with have a limiter filter for the extrusion events, so we do not see that anymore. Also, we have not had to replace blown speakers since working with that system so long ago,

As for over power...
One of the team had a cabinet he had built for himself that he later sold to Adam Nitti. That thing was regularly run with a Crown MicroTech 1000 Power Amp where one side ran 2s JBL 8110 5" Speakers at 4 ohms, and the other side ran a JBL 2255 15" and he never blew a speaker. In fact Adam played that cab until he signed with SWR, which was before Aguilar.

You might disagree with the nomenclature, but the principles have been applied for years by our people and also friends formerly with ShowCo when that operation existed, and has kept tragedies at bay for years.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Underpowering is not a myth when you are pushing the Bass Amp to 9 and 10 positions on the volume knob reaching for 11.

It was commonly known in the past that the power sections of amps started to create direct current type power at the upper ends of operation and that attribute of the power would arc off the coil and thus "blow" the coil by an actual burn.

Long ago we had a system we worked where the band leader insisted on running 4 EV 12Ls with one side of a Peavey CS8400 Amp. We were regularly replacing voice coils on that rig,

Meanwhile he was running 4 Gauss 18" speakers with one side of the CS800. On that side of the amp we were regularly replacing power transistors that were being melted as the Gauss speakers could be plugged into 110v from the wall without melting the voice coils. Something had to die and the transistors were the weakest link, the end.

Cone extrusion is another thing completely where wattage and frequency collide to flab the cone forward. Never seen a grill need to hold an extrusion back.

The amps we have been working with have a limiter filter for the extrusion events, so we do not see that anymore. Also, we have not had to replace blown speakers since working with that system so long ago,

As for over power...
One of the team had a cabinet he had built for himself that he later sold to Adam Nitti. That thing was regularly run with a Crown MicroTech 1000 Power Amp where one side ran 2s JBL 8110 5" Speakers at 4 ohms, and the other side ran a JBL 2255 15" and he never blew a speaker. In fact Adam played that cab until he signed with SWR, which was before Aguilar.

You might disagree with the nomenclature, but the principles have been applied for year by our people and also friends formerly with ShowCo when that operation existed, and has kept tragedies a bay for years.

Paging Agedhorse!

 

[Jim Carr]

...It was commonly known in the past that the power sections of amps started to create direct current type power at the upper ends of operation and that attribute of the power would arc off the coil and thus "blow" the coil by an actual burn.

If this was a myth, then guitarists would not seek the higher powered distortion events and effects from cranking the Amp up, they would instead be cranking the power section down against the wide open preamp section...

JD—I respect your experience and your intuitive understanding of the situation we bassists face. I'd ask you to consider this: if driving pre or power amps into clipping actually produced wave forms so distorted that they destroy bass drivers, then why is it that so many distortion and overdrive effects don't do the same thing, even at high volume?

There are two ways to kill bass drivers: over-heating, and over-excursion. Pre-amp and power amp clipping and the distorted waveforms they create don't do this. Too much power and/or low frequency signals that push drivers mechanically beyond the range of motion they can handle are the culprits.

The "power amp clipping kills drivers" misconception depends on the idea that a square wave (made by clipping off the tops) has more energy in the high frequencies than an unclipped wave. This greater square wave high frequency energy is for real, but it's actually a hazard for tweeters, not for low frequency or full range drivers. It can't cause over-excursion or over-heating because of the waveform shape change. You need more amplitude to do that.

Final note: Many amps, when clipping, deliver much more power (amplitude) than they do when not clipping. Thus, it is technically possible to clip a power amp and thereby over-heat or over-excurt (sic) drivers while clipping. However, this is in effect the same as having too powerful an amp, and is the not the "under powering" that is (mythically) supposed to harm drivers with a clipped waveform. It is simply over-powering.

 

[JD Long]

JS, bring him on

The OP just admitted he was underpowered "320 watts @ 8 ohms and I was using a 400 watt cab. The boost knob was cranked too much"

He was 80 watts short of a numeric match, and possibly and his last 30 watts of headroom trying to reach was probably dirty as well,

He needed more, used the boost and killed the coils. If he had 400 to 450 he would not have reached for the boost knob, which is symptomatic to the issue of needing MORE, not the actual cause.

Now he is judicious and cautious as we should all be moving this much electricity.

 

[BigBobbyBass]

+1