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Louder Rig
- Thread starter Braden Persch
- Start date
Wrong......
What the OP did was OVERPOWER his cab.
320w @ 8 ohms when PUSHED is more like 640w run into a 400w THERMAL rated cab that can really only handle around 200-300 of bass frequencies.
I'd say add the 410 and boost your mids. The Gks can cut right through sludgy guitars and a 700rb stack should definetly do it. Also, depending on your tuning even if you're a 4 stringer, hit the 5 string switch to clean it up a little more if tuned real low
Are you guys running through a PA?
Are you guys running through a PA?
I understand why BFM left the room................
Jim Carr
Dr. Jim
- Jan 21, 2006
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- fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
Bad idea to add an 8 or 4 ohm 210 to an 8 ohm 410. You can add an 8 ohm 210 to a 4 ohm 410 if your head is OK with 2 ohms and the drivers/cab geometry are the same—but that is not applicable here.
Honestly, mixing drivers works OK at low volumes and is a disaster 80% of the time at loud volumes. Get two high quality matched cabinets and enough power to drive them to the level you need. This takes time and money, and is known as GAS.
JCarr - Preamp Distortion and Power Section distortions are two different things in my book, One will have a long term effect and takes some time to finally do in drivers. The other is more of a heat effect from high voltage clipping as you say, and why guitarists on average lose drivers at a higher rate than bassists.
Simple principles regarding how the two are made differently,
Your final assumption on range of motion being the sole issue around blown drivers is erroneous. Just as you point out about different frequencies being involved, the numerous EV 12L drivers we had seen need to recoil and cone were well within their range of non extruded motion where they burned. They were hooked to a midrange section of cross over. There was no extrusion, it was the heat and electricity of an overworked poweramp that was under powered for what the Cabinet and Load were designed for.
Please, understand, what happens when you try an pull a Semi Trailer up a hill with a Kia Soul? Something is going to give, the frame or the Engine.
This is about Balance of a system. The Judicious application of Power. There is a place in the middle between over power causing extrusions and underpower just sending DC square wave.
And the commentors saying that if underpowering were real, speakers would blow with no power connected to them, is just being disingenuous.
Simple principles regarding how the two are made differently,
Your final assumption on range of motion being the sole issue around blown drivers is erroneous. Just as you point out about different frequencies being involved, the numerous EV 12L drivers we had seen need to recoil and cone were well within their range of non extruded motion where they burned. They were hooked to a midrange section of cross over. There was no extrusion, it was the heat and electricity of an overworked poweramp that was under powered for what the Cabinet and Load were designed for.
Please, understand, what happens when you try an pull a Semi Trailer up a hill with a Kia Soul? Something is going to give, the frame or the Engine.
This is about Balance of a system. The Judicious application of Power. There is a place in the middle between over power causing extrusions and underpower just sending DC square wave.
And the commentors saying that if underpowering were real, speakers would blow with no power connected to them, is just being disingenuous.
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We have had PA support at every gig, but we just booked 2 bigger shows. One is a festival and another at a very large theater. Every show i've seen at the theater has required at least an 810. The most I've seen was 4 fridge's. I generally don't have volume issues at practice (The practice PA is just for vocals) but with the 2nd guitard they have both been turning up slightly. I play a 5er in A, already have the switch on.
Bass Pounder - we might well be deemed a simpletons over here, but we have never been fed such convoluted material before in our lives.
We have applied this theory and do not have to replace drivers, and have not for decades.
We have applied this theory and do not have to replace drivers, and have not for decades.
Then I guess you never spoke to the actual engineers that design and build the stuff huh ?
If the 5 string switch is on, you are boosting a bunch of really low frequencies that your cab can barely put out. Keep the switch set to "4-string" mode. You do not need the extra lows here. You probably WANT them especially since you are tuned to A standard though......doesn't mean your cabinet can handle it.
Hmmmm Dirty power. Clipping power will often blow the tweeter because the harmonic content of square waves will throw a lot more power to the tweeter. It should not however, blow the 10's as well. My guess is the user is pushing the bottom end too much and over extruding the speakers. A lot of subsonic content in tone only soaks up power and muddies up the mix. Like I wrote earlier, EQ the tone so that it sits above the kick drum and below everything.
An amplifier that is underpowered for the situation, is quite different from the false concept of underpowering speakers.
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Wow..... So much misinformation in one thread.
OP- Your answer is an identical 410. Period. You can choose to accept this or not. If BY CHANCE your 810 rig with approx 600w going to it isn't loud enough.....and you're still harheaded enough to stay in a band that stupid....then you sell your head and move up to 1000w. At that point though, really...all you're doing is killing yourself and maiming your audience. There's no sense in it.
(EDIT: I see you have a large theater and a festival gig..... In that situation an 810 with 6-1000w is perfectly rational if your bass isn't going to be in the monitors and you need that stage volume to cover a large open air stage....)
You are NOT underpowering your cab. That's ridiculous. As is the thesis written above about it. For 10years, I ran an Acoustic b200 into a hartke410xl. The hartke is 400w. At 8ohms....my head was only putting out like 120w. I played in MANY bands with multiple guitarists and never had to turn that amp past noon. I did go to 3oclock once for giggle....played that way for an hour- it didn't blow up. It didn't break up....it didn't have an issue at all. It was just deafening.
Any time I "needed" more stage sound I just stuck another cab under it, typically another cab rated around 400w- whih means I was putting 200w into 800w cabs...... And my amp never blew and neither did the speaker...... And I also never turned up past noon.
A second 410- making the guitarists understand that louder isn't better- or leaving the band- is your answer. *shrug*
OP- Your answer is an identical 410. Period. You can choose to accept this or not. If BY CHANCE your 810 rig with approx 600w going to it isn't loud enough.....and you're still harheaded enough to stay in a band that stupid....then you sell your head and move up to 1000w. At that point though, really...all you're doing is killing yourself and maiming your audience. There's no sense in it.
(EDIT: I see you have a large theater and a festival gig..... In that situation an 810 with 6-1000w is perfectly rational if your bass isn't going to be in the monitors and you need that stage volume to cover a large open air stage....)
You are NOT underpowering your cab. That's ridiculous. As is the thesis written above about it. For 10years, I ran an Acoustic b200 into a hartke410xl. The hartke is 400w. At 8ohms....my head was only putting out like 120w. I played in MANY bands with multiple guitarists and never had to turn that amp past noon. I did go to 3oclock once for giggle....played that way for an hour- it didn't blow up. It didn't break up....it didn't have an issue at all. It was just deafening.
Any time I "needed" more stage sound I just stuck another cab under it, typically another cab rated around 400w- whih means I was putting 200w into 800w cabs...... And my amp never blew and neither did the speaker...... And I also never turned up past noon.
A second 410- making the guitarists understand that louder isn't better- or leaving the band- is your answer. *shrug*
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I wouldn't say the band is stupid, considering I was one of the "founding" members and I believe we are quite successful for not even being old enough to play in bars yet. I was able to hear myself when we were a 3 piece, but since adding the second guitarist there's more gain/distortion/overall noise in the mix. The guitar amps were EQ'd correctly (scooped mids) and so is my amp (pushed mids). I could probably push my cab harder than I am, but since blowing a cab I am being overly cautious with this new one. Everybody is assuming we're overly loud and can't EQ correctly, but really I'm just scared to push the cab too hard. Which i'm fine with, I don't mind spending the money on a second one.
I have the same fear, unwarranted or not. Two things in my signal chain help me feel much better about turning up the volume, Boss LMB3 (limiter) and a High Pass Filter (to cut the lowest, unneeded lows).
As a fellow 700RB user, tell me where all your knobs are, we'll go from there.
I don't think that you don't know how to EQ, I am curious and may be able to offer more insight.
I apologize for saying stupid in terms of the intelligence of the band. I meant stupid in terms of overly loud for the situation. Your current rig should be more than enough for any responsible band in most situations. Large outdoor gigs with a huge stage and no bass in the monitors certainly call for you to move more air.
That being said..... For anything other than that- you having volume issues implies that yes- your band is overly loud.
As a former speed/death metal guitarist.....you may find that what really needs to happen is your guitarists need to back out of your frequency and UN smiley their eq. All of you could then play at a reasonable level in the range your supposed to....and you will sound better as well. *shrug* IMHO, IME, Ymmv.... All other disclaimers that apply.
That being said..... For anything other than that- you having volume issues implies that yes- your band is overly loud.
As a former speed/death metal guitarist.....you may find that what really needs to happen is your guitarists need to back out of your frequency and UN smiley their eq. All of you could then play at a reasonable level in the range your supposed to....and you will sound better as well. *shrug* IMHO, IME, Ymmv.... All other disclaimers that apply.
I would sell the 700, get a 1001rb and add a second 410. Boom. Done
Pretty much the case of what needs to be done if he does not dump the cab.
