Louder Rig

[JD Long]

An amplifier that is underpowered for the situation, is quite different from the false concept of underpowering speakers.

Split hairs of nomenclature all you want SunnBass, but even GrayBeard understood the issue of Clipping Power being a problem, although it is not always high or low frequency.

 

[JD Long]

Kickstand - you never under powered because you never went past high noon,

Underpower clipping blow is happening at 9 and 10 sometimes 8

 

[JD Long]

Braden - if you are pushing past 9 o'clock get some more Power. You will not need to populate the stage and break your back.

Sure you can buy another cab, and it might just be enough, but if it is not, you will kick yourself for not buying more amp that could drive what you already had into the 800 watt range.

You seem judicious and informed enough to be trusted with the Power.

 

[Munjibunga]

Yes much can be achieved by Sound Reinforcement and giving leeway to ensemble, but this is a Death Metal act.

We have seen situations where the bassist comes in 2X over power of the Guitarist as Entwistle ascertained and there was no problem at all, because he had discipline to play for the group.

We have seen where that increase in mass and power made the Guitarist go out and get a bottom 4X12 and go into nirvana because the tone was more inspiring when the power tubes began running at the 4 ohm level, and things got even better, because he was not struggling to get what he wanted from his system, and he was still mic'd.

We have seen the 800W of Guitar get mic'd on an outdoor gig and there being no wire for the Bass, and the Bass take on 2000W of PA and 800W of Guitar and still pound the Festival Field from the Flatbed Stage. [I supposed Genz did not lie about 1W of GB sounding like 2W of anyone else].

In the opinion given, we were not wanting to pass judgement on the choice of 10's. We were trying to respect that the 10's might be a tonal choice, and then help the player move to his objective of world domination [because that is what Bass is all about. right?]

When a player finds a tone that inspires him, do not ever try and take that away from him.
Just as in a studio, we work and labor to foster and support that for the Artist.

When you discover the tone that inspires you, keep your components a true to the original as you can. Then up the POWWWWA!

Uhhh ... who are "we"?

 

[kikstand454]

Kickstand - you never under powered because you never went past high noon,

Underpower clipping blow is happening at 9 and 10 sometimes 8

But I did. I said I did. I ran it for over an hour in the 7-8 range and never had an issue. And also..... You're kinda proving my point with the OP. Regardless of the "underpowering" issue.... His band is too loud. If he's not getting the volume at 3/4 of the cabs rating..... Then what will another 1/4 do decible wise? I don't know the stats but I venture to guess its not +6db. Meanwhile....he has now entered a territory where any small mistake can blow his cab.
Doubling his speaker area will most certainly give him a noticeable volume boost..... While keeping his amp at a reasonable output relative to the cab. He won't NEED to push the amp to 7-10 because with double the speaker space, he can keep it around noon.

 

[SunnBass]

Split hairs of nomenclature all you want SunnBass, but even GrayBeard understood the issue of Clipping Power being a problem, although it is not always high or low frequency.

My response is agreeing with clipping, and making an important differentiation between two oft confused concepts.

The "even ______ understands clipping" statement was quite condescending and unappreciated however.

 

[JD Long]

Kickstand - sometimes 8... sometimes. Judging another band's volume is like judging their Art, just not going to go there, like judging the selection of 10's. What 3/4 power? He does not have 3/4 power. He does not have 600W at 8 Ohms, more like 6/10, and that is still a long way away from the clear capacity of the cab. Reasonable output at doubling? Huh? He is never going to get anywhere near 1600W. What math are we missing here? Maybe the multiplication of surface area might help him, but the odds are not in his favor. The only reasonable and responsible thing to say in this circumstance is get more power, he has already paid for the real estate.

SunnBass - that is and always what was presented in the posts from the beginning. Last 10% of power being dirty clipping power. Some people want to read what they want to read and ignore what was printed.

Electronics being what they are, if you are 10-20% over powered for a cabinet, you many well find you have plenty of clean headroom power.

If you have 380W into a 400W cabinet, you will definitely blow that cab faster than 380W into 800W as the 800W cab is designed to take double the heat, but one day the piper will have to be paid.

If you have 380W into a 400W cabinet, you will definitely blow that cab faster than 900W into 800W with judicious use of the power via the volume knob.

At 800W, one might not ever get past the 2 o'clock position as we had an outdoor event with no bass in the mix and 1200W to 1200W and the level not only went to 1 o'clock, but the preamp levels were backed off and signal shaping backed down, because the Amp was doing all the work as it was designed to.

Often times there is usually a spot in an amp where it comes into its own, and it it is usually beyond the rehearsal gain and volume levels at about 9 o'clock where the EQ has to be rethought.

 

[rodl2005]

I'd be getting another matching 410 cab. Done!

 

[okcrum]

I wouldn't say the band is stupid, considering I was one of the "founding" members and I believe we are quite successful for not even being old enough to play in bars yet. I was able to hear myself when we were a 3 piece, but since adding the second guitarist there's more gain/distortion/overall noise in the mix. The guitar amps were EQ'd correctly (scooped mids) and so is my amp (pushed mids). I could probably push my cab harder than I am, but since blowing a cab I am being overly cautious with this new one. Everybody is assuming we're overly loud and can't EQ correctly, but really I'm just scared to push the cab too hard. Which i'm fine with, I don't mind spending the money on a second one.

Right about the misinformation, other than the second cab.

My advice would be go with the second 410, and take a look at this.

 

[SunnBass]

The only reasonable and responsible thing to say in this circumstance is get more power, he has already paid for the real estate.

This is the exact opposite of what the OP should do.

Please to read all of this: AMPS FAQ!! Info on OHMS, Allsize RIGS-OverUnderPowerCabs DIY TechTalk-Links | TalkBass.com

And, I'm out.
Not interested in beating my head against a wall, enjoy.

 

[JD Long]

Wow, clear as mother's milk.

Clipping Power Burns coils. The End.

We have explained enough in our combined decades of experience of operating and even building cabinets.

This is not a matter of consensus or opinion.

If you have 800W of speaker it is best to have an Amp that can give you 800W of clean headroom power so you do not put a lesser amp into clipping to burn the coils.

 

[Jim Carr]

JCarr - Preamp Distortion and Power Section distortions are two different things in my book, One will have a long term effect and takes some time to finally do in drivers. The other is more of a heat effect from high voltage clipping as you say, and why guitarists on average lose drivers at a higher rate than bassists....

Your final assumption on range of motion being the sole issue around blown drivers is erroneous. Just as you point out about different frequencies being involved, the numerous EV 12L drivers we had seen need to recoil and cone were well within their range of non extruded motion where they burned. They were hooked to a midrange section of cross over. There was no extrusion, it was the heat and electricity of an overworked poweramp that was under powered for what the Cabinet and Load were designed for.

Please, understand, what happens when you try an pull a Semi Trailer up a hill with a Kia Soul? Something is going to give, the frame or the Engine.
Go read the FAQ, do a little googling, and try to remember that we all can learn new things.

This is about Balance of a system. The Judicious application of Power. There is a place in the middle between over power causing extrusions and underpower just sending DC square wave.

N.B., I never said or assumed "range of motion being the sole issue around blown drivers." "over-heat or over-excurt drivers" is what I said. OK, there is no such word as "excurt," but I though it might be clear.

Some drivers intended for low range can burn out from over-heating if they don't have enough excursion to operate their cooling. Ask Alex Claber at Barefaced. There is no such thing as a "DC square wave." DC is not a wave form, it is a voltage with no periodic oscillation.

In your analogy between a bass amp/speaker/volume system and a Kia/trailer/hill system, you have a fallacy, IMHO.

The Kia is the amp not the speaker, as the Kia and the amp provides the force to move something.
When the Kia (amp) fails on the hill (volume), the trailer (speaker) is still fine. Your underpowered "amp" (the Kia) is failing, not your speaker (the trailer being moved).

The analogy does not work.

 

[rodl2005]

Sometimes. ....

 

[SunnBass]

spkpwfaq.pdf​

"For musical instrument application, where distorted (overdriven) output may be a musical requirement, the system should be powered with an amplifier capable of delivering only one-half of the IEC rating for the system.

Discussion: Much rock music is produced at full output with the amplifier well into clipping, and this is a matter of musical choice. When an amplifier capable of, say, 300 watts of undistorted sinewave output is driven well into clipping, its output power can approach 600 watts!
So, Berating the system to one-half its IEC power will result in safe operation of the loudspeaker"...
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[bebass]

If the 5 string switch is on, you are boosting a bunch of really low frequencies that your cab can barely put out. Keep the switch set to "4-string" mode. You do not need the extra lows here. You probably WANT them especially since you are tuned to A standard though......doesn't mean your cabinet can handle it.

Hmmmm Dirty power. Clipping power will often blow the tweeter because the harmonic content of square waves will throw a lot more power to the tweeter. It should not however, blow the 10's as well. My guess is the user is pushing the bottom end too much and over extruding the speakers. A lot of subsonic content in tone only soaks up power and muddies up the mix. Like I wrote earlier, EQ the tone so that it sits above the kick drum and below everything.

Bold mine. Agree with this I do. And, this is more than likely happening.

Solution:
If micing DON"T use a common kick drum mic as it is more than likely boosting right where you don't want to be.
Un smiley-face the guitars. Follow GreyBeard's advice.

THEN if all that doesn't work, everyone else has given a great suggestion to get another identical cab.

When I played metal I used a much more robust power amp. But it is always the amp/speaker combo and I bet the 810s will do it. I do suggest trying to get used to a bit less volume. In the metal band I was in we were WAY too loud. It hurts people's ears.

 

[Jim Carr]

...When an amplifier capable of, say, 300 watts of undistorted sinewave output is driven well into clipping, its output power can approach 600 watts!...

Yes, as is I explained above in post #38:

...Many amps, when clipping, deliver more power (amplitude) than they do when not clipping. Thus, it is technically possible to clip a power amp and thereby over-heat or over-excurt (sic) drivers while clipping. However, this is the same as having too powerful an amp, and is the not the "under powering" that is (mythically) supposed to harm drivers with a clipped waveform. It is simply over-powering.

A small amp may deliver too much power when clipping. A big amp may deliver too much power without clipping. Too much power (wave amplitude) in both cases, not the wave forms are the problem.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

.

Well that was fun to read all in one sitting.
Get another cab.

 

[JD Long]

Why redline two cabs now when the 25% more headroom at 4 ohms is not enough?

Why not more power that the Cab he has already will like?

Why run a 500W amp at half power to avoid redline clipping when one can run an 800W amp at half power and avoid clipping with still yet more headroom?

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Why redline two cabs now when the 25% more headroom at 4 ohms is not enough?

Why not more power that the Cab he has already will like?

Why run a 500W amp at half power to avoid redline clipping when one can run an 800W amp at half power and avoid clipping with still yet more headroom?

Simple. A cab has a SPL limit irrespective of the amount of watts thrown at it. A single cab can only move a certain volume of air. Adding another cab will approximately double the volume of air moved.
A more sensitive cab could potentially reach its full SPL with fewer watts. Cone surface area added to efficiency will win over watts any day.

 

[JD Long]

So you are saying Mephisto that when a Bassist we worked with Ran 2 112 cabinets at 4 ohms total at 425W against a single guitarist with 6 4x12 cabs and 2 100W amps, and the guitarist fired the bassist for being too loud, that such a thing did not happen and is not possible because the guitarist had more speakers and the bass could not compete against all of the mass of speakers because mass wins over wattage.

Really?

We have not seen a speaker blown in decades, we are not buying this.