Louder Rig

[/\/\3phist0]

Who said guitar 412 cabs were efficient.?
And as far as the bassist being too loud.
That's an opinion. And I'm certain that the guitarist had a volume control ... I can run my 1200 watt Mesa Titan amp at coffee house volumes through an 8x10 too... so the statement about the bassist being too loud means nothing.
So to flip it around.
You believe a 1200 watt ampifier into a 200watt 112 will be louder than a 500 watt amp?
All speakers (drivers or cabs..the limits of their design) have a maximum SPL.
This SPL varies by frequency.
2 identical speakers at the same wattage will be louder than 1 this is an undeniable fact. (Of course all other things being equal)

If this were NOT true we'd all be using 5000 watt amps into ear bud sized speakers at the concert hall. Because I guarantee that the pro sound guys use the least amount of equipment to allow for nessesary headroom and the SPL necessary. To fill the venue.
A 18 watt 112 Dr z guitar combo can get earsplittung loud in a garage..... but would barely be heard at 100 yards outside.. room gain also plays a lot into "perceived volume" as does proximity and perspective in relation to the sound source.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Beginner's Guide To PA Systems, Part 3: Amps & Speakers

 

[S-Bigbottom]

The Bassist got fired for being to loud because of the guitarist attitude.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

 

[/\/\3phist0]

A clipped signal is not DC.

You must be joking about the "under-powering."

That would be one mightily poor amp design!

No you don't. The loudspeakers don't know or care what part of the signal is clean and what part is distortion. Putting too much power into a loudspeaker will tend to burn it out. More than 90% of the power you put into a loudspeaker driver doesn't turn into acoustical energy--it turns into heat. That's about the same efficiency as an incandescent light bulb.

Imagine the heat coming off a 100-watt light bulb. That's about what you get putting 100 watts of audio into a loudspeaker driver. If you have, say, an amp rated at 400 watts into 8 ohms, and it's feeding an 8-ohm cab, you're probably putting an average of about 50 to 100 watts into the cab most of the time if you're only occasionally tickling the clip LED and not using heavy compression or other processing that squeezes the dynamic range. If you crank it up so you're running the amp into a lot of clipping, or maybe you've got lots of distortion or compression that squeezes the peaks that would otherwise alert you via the clip LEDs, you might be putting out an average of 200 watts or more. Theoretically a square wave from the amp in this example could reach 800 watts, but by that time you'd have really obliterated any musical sense in your playing.

What he said is actually wrong.

And there's no such thing as "under-powering" a loudspeaker.

 

[Gearhead17]

The Bassist got fired for being to loud because of the guitarist attitude.

All midrange bass tone meets the smiley-face EQ for the guitar player. Guitarists proclaims: "Why can I still hear the bassist? This is crazy! I am the star of the show!" Mostly an issue with the tone each party is trying to recreate.

I have played with guitar players who insist on a smiley-face EQ setting on their amp head and use "metal style" pedals which are already killing the midrange the moment they are turned on. In the end, no midrange will be in their tone. And I have heard these same players complain they can't hear themselves with a single 412.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Wow, clear as mother's milk.

Clipping Power Burns coils. The End.

We have explained enough in our combined decades of experience of operating and even building cabinets.

This is not a matter of consensus or opinion.

If you have 800W of speaker it is best to have an Amp that can give you 800W of clean headroom power so you do not put a lesser amp into clipping to burn the coils.

More like clipping power burns coils but only in cases where the clipping results in more power being developed in the coils than they can safely dissipate which may or may not be the amount of power the drivers are rated for because there are many factors which serve to derate that number in the real world.

How's that for a mouthful?

We've gone around this a million times on TB so I'm not going to write a massively long post on it today but if you dig around, particularly for posts by Bob Lee (who is an engineer at QSC), Agedhorse (Genz-Benz, Mesa) and Alexclaber (Barefaced Bass) among others, I think you will be able to gain a good understanding of what's going on and why speakers don't care about waveform or even whether a signal is clipped or not as long as that signal falls within the safe parameters of the driver in a particular cabinet, not to mention why sometimes it is possible to blow up a driver with an amp rated for less power than the driver is rated for. These guys really know what they are talking about and have written some very useful posts on the subject. Worth your while to have a look.

 

[JimmyM]

Wow, clear as mother's milk.

Clipping Power Burns coils. The End.

If this is the case, then how come I can take my 25w B-15 or my 100w V4B (or for that matter one of my 300w SVT's), turn it up all the way, and not blow speakers in my Heritage 810e, rated for 800w before fartout and 1200w before the voice coils blow? The answer is simple. Because you're wrong.

 

[SunnBass]

Okay, but seriously:

What would adding more wattage accomplish?
The audible difference would be almost unnoticeable.
To increase volume by 1 db, power must be doubled.

So pumping tons of wattage into the existing cab will accomplish almost nothing.


So yes, really.

 

[JimmyM]

Okay, but seriously:

What would adding more wattage accomplish?
The audible difference would be almost unnoticeable.
To increase volume by 1 db, power must be doubled.

So pumping tons of wattage into the existing cab will accomplish almost nothing.


So yes, really.

Another good point. I have never seen a 410 that can take more than 500w before fartout. Adding wattage to a 410 that's already putting out around the 500w RMS mark is pointless.

 

[Mark Reccord]

So you are saying Mephisto that when a Bassist we worked with Ran 2 112 cabinets at 4 ohms total at 425W against a single guitarist with 6 4x12 cabs and 2 100W amps, and the guitarist fired the bassist for being too loud, that such a thing did not happen and is not possible because the guitarist had more speakers and the bass could not compete against all of the mass of speakers because mass wins over wattage.

Really?

We have not seen a speaker blown in decades, we are not buying this.

That's not really an "all other things equal" situation. Long and short of it is that adding another cabinet to an existing amp will gain you more output than upgrading to an amp that's twice as powerful instead of adding a cabinet, because not only do you get more power from the amp by dropping the load impedance, you get acoustic coupling. So while doubling your amplifier power into a cabinet, might net you +3dB in a perfect world with no power compression, adding an identical cabinet will net +6dB in a perfect world (it's always a bit less than that in the real world). Not to mention the benefits of a taller stack (i.e. directional midrange and high frequencies pointed more at your head than your butt). If you want real gains in SPL, adding speakers is the way to go.

 

[Mark Reccord]

@Braden Persch I would recommend adding a second Neo 410 before upgrading the head. The 700rb into two of those will be stinkin' loud and even if you're hitting it really, really hard you are at minimal risk of damaging the speakers. Basically, a 380W amp can potentially put out near double that amount of power under extreme clipping, which is ~760W. Cabs are rated for 800 a piece and even if they can only actually handle 500W of real world power, you're still well within their parameters. Not saying you couldn't damage them but you'd be pretty safe and would have to be doing something pretty stupid to accomplish that.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Another good point. I have never seen a 410 that can take more than 500w before fartout. Adding wattage to a 410 that's already putting out around the 500w RMS mark is pointless.

1000w rms rated

Another good point. I have never seen a 410 that can take more than 500w before fartout. Adding wattage to a 410 that's already putting out around the 500w RMS mark is pointless.

@JimmyM
many high watt 410's exist had one of these (4 ohm) and combined with a GK MB800 it was DEAFENING Epifani - UL2 410 Bass Cabinet
UL2 Series
410 CABINET
SPECS
CONFIGURATION4 x 10" 250W Epifani Aluminum-frame Neo Drivers
100 Watt Bullet Tweeter
Adjustable Tweeter Level Control
IMPEDANCE
8 or 4 Ohms
POWER RATING1000 Watt RMS
2400 Watt Peak
SPECSResponse 40Hz - 16kHz
Sensitivity 103dB (1W@1m)
HARDWARE
2 x Speakon + 1/4" Output Connectors
Lite Ply Poplar Plywood
Dado Joint Construction
Road-Ready Carpet Covering
High-Impact Locking Corners
Steel Recessed Handles
18 Gauge Steel Grill
DIMENSIONS26.25"h x 23"w x 17.75"d
63.8 lbs

and over 500 Watts [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
euphonic audio is known for underrating their cabs.... more to my Earlier point... note the MAX SPL RATING - illustrating design limitations, or goals one lower larger and heavier (Epi) one smaller Louder and lighter AND more sensitive (EA)

• Configuration: 4x10
• Woofer: Proprietary EA Kevlar Neodymium woofers
• Tweeter: 1" Phenolic Compression Driver
• Frequency Response: 45Hz to 15kHz
• Sensitivity: 106dB @ 1m
• Sound Pressure: 136dB @ 1m
• Power Handling: 1000 watts
• Impedance: 4 ohms
• Connection Type: Two Speakon connectors
• Handle: Two integrated custom steel handles
• Size: 24.5"H x 22"W x 15"D
• Weight: 57 lbs

of course there is a certain amount of exaggeration involved with these specs, and having used BOTH of these cabs in gig surroundings (although mine was an epi UL1) , I can attest that the sensitivity differential between these two was apparent, and surprisingly the more sensitive of the 2 (EA) "opened up" sonically at a lower volume that the less sensitive (Epifani).

I shudder to think what kind of seismic event would be caused by a 2 ohm stable 3kw amp could do with 2xEA NL410W's OMG!

 

[Jeff Scott]

To increase volume by 1 db, power must be doubled.

Actually, doubling of the power will increase the SPL by 3dB.

 

[JimmyM]

of course there is a certain amount of exaggeration involved with these specs

Uh-huh I'm sure they are wonderful cabs that put out a butt-ton of volume, but those power handling figures are for voice coil meltdown, not fartout.

 

[JD Long]

Y^ep. it is clear then, it did not happen.

 

[Vince Klortho]

Wow, this is the second time in a week we have been treated to the mythology of underpowering speakers.

Maybe treated isn't the right word. I think "subjected to" fits better.

 

[jasonrp]

You have the best username ever.

It had to be said

 

[BassmanPaul]

It's strange how many times this particular dragon has to be slain. Every few months a thread comes up touting misinformation and myths that have been lain to rest many, many times. Sad that!

JD I too would like to know who "we" refers to. Is it just the royal we? As in "we are not amused!"

 

[Leo was right]

I know I'm underpowered, and the goal was to get a new head pretty soon also. A 1001Rb or maybe a 2001, sometimes overkill is good. I figure more wattage and more speakers will give me some more volume until I get a higher powered head. I'm slightly paranoid/scared of pumping more power into this cab as I've already blown a 410 prior to getting the GK rig.

The guitards both play 150 watt Line 6 stacks. We practice at my place so all the gear is in my basement, I took the pleasure of EQ'ing (smiley face) their amps for them. They aren't stubborn about volume so hopefully everything works out.

Look,I play Blues in a trio, I need 400w to compete with the 20w tube combo of the guitar, physical law are against you. You need power and square inches of area of speakers, I agree you need at least 8x10" speakers with your gk head and don't be afraid to double it again if not enough plus remove theirs low E strings like Keith Richard did.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Y^ep. it is clear then, it did not happen.

@JD Long it probably did happen, what was unclear is whether the guitarist was the unusual breed that decided that loud enough was loud enough, or he hated bass guitar in the mix (like Lars) what were the volume controls set at, what were the cabinets loaded with, what kind of music, if he knew how to gain stage, how to EQ...---- your example probably DID happen. -- as to why? who knows?

It still proves NOTHING

WE are obviously not impressed.

I have been in a band (metal) with one guitarist with a fender twin (85 watts 2x12) VS a Marshall 100 watt 1/2 stack

you could not even hear the marshall..... part of the reason was that the marshall was run by a rhythm guitarist that used a DEEPLY scooped tone that sounded astounding soloed..... in a group setting it was all dog whistle and rumble... the fender guy was a Mid monster that could take your head off...


suggested reading---- http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

seriously---