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Low Down Sound 15/6.5 Cab
- Thread starter KJung
- Start date
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
Can't imagine a 1"/waveguide in the 15/6/1 configuration. Even with a 15/6 Its VERY bright on the top end. I know Chef has said he wouldn't do it without, but man...I can only think that it would take off the top of your head!
Air, sheen, sizzle, all exist above 7kHz where the 6" is pretty much doing nothing.
It is, of course, all a matter of taste and your tone goals.
To my ears, in the loud mix of a band, qualities such as "air," "sheen," "sizzle" and "sparkle" in bass tone are mighty hard to hear. Those qualities might stand out in your bedroom, but unless the music is putting special focus on high-register bass lines (e.g. harmonics, tapping), 99% of the listeners won't hear them.
Which makes the tweeter pretty much an unnecessary doo-dad for most practical applications. That's why I didn't bother to add one. Extra cost and weight. Omitting the tweeter enabled a smaller cabinet form factor. It's all about meeting the need, not someone's textbook idea of a "perfect cab."
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Hey Ukiah, actually when one is playing harmonics the content isn't in the tweeter range either. It's seems to actually suppress overtones above the main speaking one somewhat.
And BurningSkies, the "taking your head off" thing is so relative. The way the high frequency section integrates so smoothly with the midrange you really don't notice it much at all until you actually are making appreciable amounts of content in that region in the first place. Otherwise, it's just mainly providing string detail, and maybe a few overtones so closely spaced as to just be percussive.
For those who desire to hear more of the content in the upmost regions it's especially nice to have that smooth integration without the big gap one has in enclosures without a midrange driver. Higher quality treble is available that actually can be heard in a mix if desired. But it's not disembodied - not harsh or piercing - unless someone actually makes it that way. I've rolled either way with my fEarful stuff for ages now, and both have their merits. So having a HF section that is adjustable and lets the midrange cone run to the top of its range without lowpass is probably the optimum way to implement this for those who do want a HF waveguide. That way they still have the options open.
That is absolutely not my experience as well as a lot of other bass players...It is especially essential for funk slap playing which has many main stream rolls.
Well there you go. I stand corrected. I don't use slapping and popping techniques, hence the source of my ignorance.
Honestly, I think for most slap styles, the cab would sound way better than you expect without a horn. Not quite there, but pretty darned close. The 18 sound driver is very very loud and goes higher than you'd expect on-axis and off-axis both.
That said, if I was a serious slapper I would want the horn. But if you're used to even a conventional midrange driver, the 18 sound driver is not even in the same ballpark
If you're thinking about a 4x10 with no midrange or horn, the 15/6 will have a LOT more off-axis and more on-axis content above 2khz or so as well.
That said, if I was a serious slapper I would want the horn. But if you're used to even a conventional midrange driver, the 18 sound driver is not even in the same ballpark
If you're thinking about a 4x10 with no midrange or horn, the 15/6 will have a LOT more off-axis and more on-axis content above 2khz or so as well.another consideration is that these can double as PA speakers, in which case the horn would be nice for voices and other instruments w/important high-freq content.
Has anyone A - B'd an LDS 15/6 versus LDS 12/6?
I have an LDS 3015LF/6ND410 crossed at 800hz. No tweeter. It gets really loud if necessary but also does great at low volume. It occurred to me that a 12/6 would be easier to carry for low-volume gigs, esp. with my Tacoma Thunderchief acoustic bass guitar.
Would the tone be identical with both the 15/6 and 12/6?
I asked Don to build another 15/6 for large outdoor venues w/o PA support. Figured it would also be good as a backup cab. But I'm having second thoughts as to whether a 12/6 wouldn't be more versitile. I'm sure the outdoor volume would be fine with a 15/6 + 12/6 (and mid turned off). My main concern is wanting tone to be identical with both cabs. Any experience would be welcome! Thanks.
I have an LDS 3015LF/6ND410 crossed at 800hz. No tweeter. It gets really loud if necessary but also does great at low volume. It occurred to me that a 12/6 would be easier to carry for low-volume gigs, esp. with my Tacoma Thunderchief acoustic bass guitar.
Would the tone be identical with both the 15/6 and 12/6?
I asked Don to build another 15/6 for large outdoor venues w/o PA support. Figured it would also be good as a backup cab. But I'm having second thoughts as to whether a 12/6 wouldn't be more versitile. I'm sure the outdoor volume would be fine with a 15/6 + 12/6 (and mid turned off). My main concern is wanting tone to be identical with both cabs. Any experience would be welcome! Thanks.
The tone should be virtually identical, but the crossover ought to be fairly different so make sure to use Greenboy's
A 15+6 and a 12+6 is my ideal combination, and I intend to build a super light 12/6 here in the future.
Thanks for that RP! Any rec's on what the crossover point should be? I'll use the same mid-driver as the 15/6. What is it about greenboy's crossover design that is better in the 12/6 than ralf's? I haven't dived that deeply into the details.
I have nothing against tweeters, but have to say that for me even doing a lot of slapping and chording on a 6-string at times, I'm just as happy with an old 1x15 and some EQ'ing if need be.
Some questions for the techies :
1. why isn't there a 4 Ohm 15"LF driver suitable for these designs? Is it "not yet" or "not possible"?
2. if fed the proper number of watts to equalize the volume, will an 8 Ohm and 4 Ohm speaker of the same brand/model in the same box sound the same?
I get why some want 8 Ohm cabs, but my favourite amps run no problem at 2 Ohms so I prefer 4 Ohm cabs.
3. phrasing question 2 another way, does the size/design of the box affect principally tone or volume too. I mean, given the same box that houses two 32 Ohm drivers would it sound the same tonally with two 8 Ohm or 2 4 Ohm drivers only louder? (presuming same brand/model of driver and not so much volume as to tax the box).
4. regarding grille materials - does diminishing returns kick in at some point, or put another way, obviously there is a physical difference between cloth, wicker, metal, or no grille, but is there an audible difference? For example this wicker grille - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=145617&d=1257562291 -which looks like it might be sonically obstructive. Obviously if it was solid it'd affect the sound, but at what point is that audibly imperceptible?
5. given the thin panels used in these cabs to keep them light, does the spray-on exterior coating provide any physical or sonic reinforcement benefit? My preference would be tolex, all else equal.
Thanks very much.
Some questions for the techies :
1. why isn't there a 4 Ohm 15"LF driver suitable for these designs? Is it "not yet" or "not possible"?
2. if fed the proper number of watts to equalize the volume, will an 8 Ohm and 4 Ohm speaker of the same brand/model in the same box sound the same?
I get why some want 8 Ohm cabs, but my favourite amps run no problem at 2 Ohms so I prefer 4 Ohm cabs.
3. phrasing question 2 another way, does the size/design of the box affect principally tone or volume too. I mean, given the same box that houses two 32 Ohm drivers would it sound the same tonally with two 8 Ohm or 2 4 Ohm drivers only louder? (presuming same brand/model of driver and not so much volume as to tax the box).
4. regarding grille materials - does diminishing returns kick in at some point, or put another way, obviously there is a physical difference between cloth, wicker, metal, or no grille, but is there an audible difference? For example this wicker grille - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=145617&d=1257562291 -which looks like it might be sonically obstructive. Obviously if it was solid it'd affect the sound, but at what point is that audibly imperceptible?
5. given the thin panels used in these cabs to keep them light, does the spray-on exterior coating provide any physical or sonic reinforcement benefit? My preference would be tolex, all else equal.
Thanks very much.
Thanks. I read the whole site. FYI Alex if you read this, the size specs on your Big Baby are incorrect.
I was wondering why you linked me there, until I realized my error. I've edited my post. It should have read :
"Why isn't there a 4 Ohm 15"LF driver ..."
Eminence will make you one 4ohm KLLF sample. The problem is they can't tell you the specs of the speakers until after it's built and tested. Which means if you're having LDS make you a cab based on the 4 ohm he couldn't proceed until he knows the specs too.
Eminence says the 4 ohm version will only lose a little sensitivity, but Don says that's conservative and will lose more than a little.
They really want you to order 50 4 ohms KLLF's to make it worth their while. I do agree a standard 4 ohm option would be great especially with smaller amps.
Eminence will make you one 4ohm KLLF sample. The problem is they can't tell you the specs of the speakers until after it's built and tested. Which means if you're having LDS make you a cab based on the 4 ohm he couldn't proceed until he knows the specs too.
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Don is about to build me a 12/6 to compliment my LDS 15/6. I'm looking for suggestions to finalize the cab's specifications.
I intend for the 12/6 to be a lighter (~35lbs) version of my 15/6 (~45lbs), and for the tone to be identical, or as close as possible. The 12/6 is for situations that don't require the huge volume potential of the 15/6. I also want to use the 12/6 and 15/6 together for outdoor gigs w/o PA support.
Here are some questions:
1. Should the 12/6 have the same tuning point as the 15/6?
2. Anything to worry about viz. phase alignment between the two cabs?
3. Should the 12/6 mid-driver be the same as the 15/6? The 15/6 has a 18Sound 6ND410 along with the Emminence Kappalite 3015LF. The 12/6 will use a 3012LF. If the mid-driver should be different, I was thinking about the Emminence Alpha 6-A; I hear it has better dispersion capability than the Faital W6N8-120.
4. How much padding should the mid-driver get in the 12/6? Padding is -3db on the 15/6.
5. When used together, should the Lpad be turned to the far left position on one of the cabs? Which one?
6. The 15/6 uses Ralf's crossover set to 800hz. Should the 12/6 be set to the same crossover point? Should it use the same crossover, or some other design?
7. Are there other critical issues for consideration?
I'm quite excited to hear the 12/6 side-by-side with the 15/6. It's helpful to hear your views on points like these.
I intend for the 12/6 to be a lighter (~35lbs) version of my 15/6 (~45lbs), and for the tone to be identical, or as close as possible. The 12/6 is for situations that don't require the huge volume potential of the 15/6. I also want to use the 12/6 and 15/6 together for outdoor gigs w/o PA support.
Here are some questions:
1. Should the 12/6 have the same tuning point as the 15/6?
2. Anything to worry about viz. phase alignment between the two cabs?
3. Should the 12/6 mid-driver be the same as the 15/6? The 15/6 has a 18Sound 6ND410 along with the Emminence Kappalite 3015LF. The 12/6 will use a 3012LF. If the mid-driver should be different, I was thinking about the Emminence Alpha 6-A; I hear it has better dispersion capability than the Faital W6N8-120.
4. How much padding should the mid-driver get in the 12/6? Padding is -3db on the 15/6.
5. When used together, should the Lpad be turned to the far left position on one of the cabs? Which one?
6. The 15/6 uses Ralf's crossover set to 800hz. Should the 12/6 be set to the same crossover point? Should it use the same crossover, or some other design?
7. Are there other critical issues for consideration?
I'm quite excited to hear the 12/6 side-by-side with the 15/6. It's helpful to hear your views on points like these.
