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Low Down Sound 15/6.5 Cab
- Thread starter KJung
- Start date
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Often better prices and stocking to be had elsewhere; always does to check around.
Em at http://www.speakerhardware.com/ or http://www.bltsound.com/
18 Sound or Em at http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/
More than one way indeed!
Ralf
Ralf
Thanks for the update Ralf. FWIW, I built five low pass boards with varying slopes, and the one I posted is more or less the middle of the builds. That was what I liked best for the fEarful 12/6. I haven't tried to design a fEarful 15/6-specific crossover yet, but what you are doing potentially makes sense to me given the lower response spike of the 15 compared to the 12. Greenboy asked me to just change the padding on my 12/6 design so builders would have something to work with for now. He's heard the results in DSP emulation and was happy it. Sounds like we used the right amount of padding too...
Anyhow, the fEarful threads are meant to be open source for design input, and I appreciate you sharing what are really proprietary business related aspects of your design. And there's always more than one way to skin a cat, eh?
Subscribed!
Ken, any thoughts on this cab or a pair of these cabs with the LMII? I was contemplating a pair of Acmes for my next cab purchase but I am very interested in the 115/6.5.
Thanks,
Doug
Ken, any thoughts on this cab or a pair of these cabs with the LMII? I was contemplating a pair of Acmes for my next cab purchase but I am very interested in the 115/6.5.
Thanks,
Doug
I liked this cab WAY better than the B210's I owned a while back. There is something IMO just not right in the mid mids and upper mids of those Acme cabs. Yes, if you want a very old school, deep bass and not much else, they are great. And, also, if you play in very open, not dense mixes (like piano jazz trio's, etc.) they sound beautiful. However, for me (and quite a few others if you do a search), when really pushed, and especially when played aggressively (slap style, for example), that beautiful, even voicing just ended up sounding 'dark and slow' to my ear.
The 15/6.5 (again, I've only played this one execution of this design) had all the low end extension you would ever need, but not that huge amount of below 40hz low end of the Acme's that just seems to eat power. The top end, again, is MUCH more present than the Acme's, and again is a more 'bright' that sizzly. So, again, more 'articulate PBass tone or old school nickel RW 60's J tone than any sort of modern sizzle or 70's funk thing.
Even though the LMII isn't the most impressive amp at 8ohms, the SPL seems SO much higher on the 15/6.5 that I would think a single 8ohm 16/6.5 would bury a single 4ohm Acme B210.
IMO!
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
That was my impression also, even though I didn't do a direct A/B. And, as we've discussed in the past, that mid driver IMO and IME on the Acme's is a bit undersized for those boxes. So, (again, as we've discussed), it's not just about volume but also about the ability to keep that relatively flat, even tone when really pushed without the cab getting 'mushy' or 'dark' sounding.
I've held my tongue as long as I can! Ken is unfailingly considerate enough to qualify his comments as subjective. But, to adapt Ken's own reference, you don't need to do a search to see that "quite a few others" DON'T prefer as much sizzle and glare from the uppers and upper-mids as he does. Just look at several earlier posts in this thread. (Maybe we're just less slap-happy!)
In any event, there are plenty of us who don't find Acmes "dark and slow". We find them to be about the only cabs whose frequency response doesn't plummet like a rock below 45-50 Hz. (With all due respect to greenboy and Alex, I haven't had the pleasure of hearing your boxes yet.)
I know it's your thread, Alex. And I really appreciate the info regarding Don's new 15/6.5 that is here. It sounds very interesting to me as well. But once in a while I just feel compelled to try to balance the teeter-totter.
All the best!
Bluesy Soul
Hey Bluesy Soul,
The 15/6 cab'll go down to around 42hz before it's -3db, and -10db @ something like 35hz. Pretty darn close to an Acme. (-10db @ 30hz).
The main thing I notice from the 3015Lf is the increased performance @ 60hz over most conventional drivers - makes the low B really explode when the 1st harmonic is +1db or so instead of -10db like most boxes
The 15/6 cab'll go down to around 42hz before it's -3db, and -10db @ something like 35hz. Pretty darn close to an Acme. (-10db @ 30hz).
The main thing I notice from the 3015Lf is the increased performance @ 60hz over most conventional drivers - makes the low B really explode when the 1st harmonic is +1db or so instead of -10db like most boxes
Hey Bluesy Soul,
The 15/6 cab'll go down to around 42hz before it's -3db, and -10db @ something like 35hz. Pretty darn close to an Acme. (-10db @ 30hz).
The main thing I notice from the 3015Lf is the increased performance @ 60hz over most conventional drivers - makes the low B really explode when the 1st harmonic is +1db or so instead of -10db like most boxes
+1 !
I've been working occasionally with Andy Lewis at Acme on his upcoming 12" neo line. He's working with Eminence on his own version of the 3012LF and we've noticed the same thing about it. In fact, the mids are so much better on his current version of the 3012LF that Andy is undecided whether he'll keep a 3-way design or go to a 2-way.
We haven't worked with the 3015LF, of course; but I'm curious. Do you find that they truly go as low (without typical, historic roll-off, etc.) as their ferrite/ceramic counterparts?
Bluesy Soul
+1 !
I've been working occasionally with Andy Lewis at Acme on his upcoming 12" neo line. He's working with Eminence on his own version of the 3012LF and we've noticed the same thing about it. In fact, the mids are so much better on his current version of the 3012LF that Andy is undecided whether he'll keep a 3-way design or go to a 2-way.
We haven't worked with the 3015LF, of course; but I'm curious. Do you find that they truly go as low (without typical, historic roll-off, etc.) as their ferrite/ceramic counterparts?
Bluesy Soul
You need to try one of these
And +1 to your comment above about the Acme going low... they do, of course. It's just the rest of it (not sizzle... I've moved away from that also), but rather a strong, even mid presence at very high volumes where 'some of us' find the Acme's to fall down a little bit. Actually, given the Acme has that little tweeter and is three way, the Acme actually has more upper treble than these cabs. By 'dark', I don't mean lacking upper treble, which I agree is not that interesting to many players, but rather a mid mid and upper mid articulation and brightness (for lack of a better term).
This cab, IMO, has 90% of the Acme low end extension, and is a quantum leap beyond the Acme mid and upper mid response, especially when pushing the cab to very high volumes.
I imagine this could be a thread of it's own (and maybe it already is), but I am confused by the idea that a cab's low end response could eat power.
I would think that would depend more on what frequencies the amp puts out, rather than the cab.
I could see that an amp could use up all its power by putting out lots of low end. I don't think I see how that could depend on the cab. On the contrary, I would think that a cab that is efficient on the low end would allow you to roll off the bass a bit and therefore get more out of the watts you've got.
Maybe, though, it's not that a cab is bass heavy, but mid shy, and so it doesn't seem loud because "loudness" comes more from the mids than the deep bass frequencies.
Maybe it's just different ways of saying the same thing.
Exactly IMO! It's why (I assume) a 15 watt guitar amp can smoke a 500 watt bass amp. Im sure Greenboy or Alexclaber can talk to this much better than I can (or Ralf for that matter). All I know is what I hear, for better or worse!
I believe that it's the amazingly powerful mid driver in these class of cabs that makes all the difference. Also, for whatever reason, that 15 doesn't seem to crap out at the transients (like slapping) like I've had happen with the Acme's. It's a strange combination of deep, deep lows, but 'tightness' also. I don't know how to describe it, but it's almost like there is a lack of cone control in the Acme's in some situations, whereas that big Eminence 15 just takes everything you can give it. The Acme's sure go low to my ear, but the tightness is not there. Yes, you can put hi pass filters, etc. on them and that helps, but man, with these cabs you just turn the amp up and crank!
You need to try one of these
And I just might. That's why I've been enjoying your thread. I'm sending Don a separate e-mail regarding the 15/6 and a couple of other things.
With the reborn interest in 15s over the past year ot two, it sounds like Don's 15/6 might appeal to quite a few players. I have a Berg HT115 that I still love. Can you compare them?
Bluesy Soul
+1 !
I've been working occasionally with Andy Lewis at Acme on his upcoming 12" neo line. He's working with Eminence on his own version of the 3012LF and we've noticed the same thing about it. In fact, the mids are so much better on his current version of the 3012LF that Andy is undecided whether he'll keep a 3-way design or go to a 2-way.
We haven't worked with the 3015LF, of course; but I'm curious. Do you find that they truly go as low (without typical, historic roll-off, etc.) as their ferrite/ceramic counterparts?
Bluesy Soul
My 3015Lf box goes far, far lower than any other driver I have ever used for bass guitar. The B-string on this cabinet is so much better it literally shames every other cabinet I've used.
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Well that's not exactly what happens, but that's what it seems like. In reality, the low bass efficiency of a well-designed and properly-tuned cab is largely set by the box size, and it's the efficiency of the rest of the spectrum that is changing.
So by way of example, let's say a given box size is capable of 90 dB with 1 watt input at 41 Hz.
We can make the cab 90 dB efficient, so that it's flat to 41 Hz, and -3 dB at 37 Hz.
We can make the cab 93 dB efficient, and now it's -3 dB at 41 Hz.
We can make the cab 100 dB efficient, and now we have -10 dB at 41 Hz and -3 dB at 75 Hz.
So as we go up in efficiency it appears to cost us bass energy because the -3 dB frequency moves upwards, but in reality the output at 41 Hz hasn't changed; its relative level to the rest of the spectrum that's changing.
I've looked at one aspect of speaker design in isolation here, which is an over-simplification for illustration purposes.
