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Low Down Sound 15/6.5 Cab

#121
Blues Cat said:
Kindness do you have the "untrue" x-over in your cab?
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Don built mine with a high pass on the mid (1.6 kHz) and nothing on the woofer. Of course that was back when he believed the 3015LF was wholly inappropriate for use in a bass cab, so he used the 3015 and a B&C mid. As sure of himself as he was then, I wonder what changed his mind that he'll use the LF now.

As background, at the time I asked him for a particular design, he refused and proposed his would be better. I let him build his, I tested it, rebuilt it as I had originally intended (and five other ways) and (not shockingly) left it in its rebuilt form as I had originally specified.

I'm not displeased as Don did a fine job with the cabinet, which I had no desire to build and I was able to swap in my drivers of choice and add a crossover (as well as sell the drivers he used to cover their cost) and it gave me a box I could experiement with a number of different ways.

As I've stated, my current crossover (PXB2:800) is a rough approximation of what I want in there and I have planned to design and build one to better suit my needs, but I haven't done so yet as other projects have kept me busy. Now that Passinwind has done one, I may not need to design my own - I will very likely use his.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd find someone to build me a cabinet using the fEarful plans (which unfortunately for me didn't exist back then), including Passinwind's crossover, or have someone like Don build me a similar box so I could control the electronics and make use of the time and design expertise that has been shared in greenboy's project.

All the talking about this the past few days has got me a little irked (or maybe not just a little) and ready to finish my cab. Time to order some parts.
 
#122
rpatter said:
I spent much of the day Saturday measuring and playing through Don's 15/6. I had pretty much the same observations as Ken (although I think he understand the beauty of the tolex). The LPad set at 10 o'clock worked for me too. Surprisingly, when I measured it with the LPad set to the 12 o'clock position, the mid was about 2 db lower than the woofer. So 10 o'clock would be around 3 db down!

Anyway, the actual crossover point of my "untrue" crossover is around 1300Hz and the mid was indeed padded. I've designed a 700 Hz crossover for Don's version of the fEarful 15/6. It differs from the Passwind crossover in that there is less overlap of the drivers. Passwind's crossover allows the 3015LF to "breathe" more.

Ralf
Click to expand...

Cool Ralf. Yes, that 10 o'clock setting resulted in what seemed to be the smoothest transition from the woofer to the mid driver to my ear (and I guess from the other comments, that -3db setting is optimal for this type of cab design with those particular drivers. I'll look forward to hearing a true 'LDS fEarful' someday.
 
#123
Kindness said:
Don built mine with a high pass on the mid (1.6 kHz) and nothing on the woofer. Of course that was back when he believed the 3015LF was wholly inappropriate for use in a bass cab, so he used the 3015 and a B&C mid. As sure of himself as he was then, I wonder what changed his mind that he'll use the LF now. {...}

As I've stated, my current crossover (PXB2:800) is a rough approximation of what I want in there and I have planned to design and build one to better suit my needs, but I haven't done so yet as other projects have kept me busy. Now that Passinwind has done one, I may not need to design my own - I will very likely use his.
Click to expand...

Yep, good choice there. It's basically so close to my favorite DSP choice (I biamp my fEarful), and because of proper overlap should sum beautifully even on the 15/6 as it does on 12/6 with 6ND410.

As I recall, you wanted to go 6ND410 and 3015LF way back when because of lead-ups to my BOUTIQUE ON A BUDGET threads. Well, let me tell you, I talked to builders too before going for the marvelous Carvin LS1503 as a quickie fix for my 3015LF/6ND410 jones. Neither wanted anything to do with what I wanted. So I slightly amended the bracing details in my pre-LS1503 design, sent it to a guy in Utah (talkbasser too) who stiffed me, and eventually published the design on the net.

Meanwhile or later, both companies are doing designs with the 3015LF and one is using the 6ND410 with it (the other uses an inferior midcone)! Imagine that! ; }
 
#124
rpsands said:
One very nice thing about B&C is the availability of 4 ohm 15s
Click to expand...

That particular model has only 5mm xmax in the 4-ohm version. There are always differences and I've often found that the 4-ohm versions sacrifice performance to leverage R&D practicalities. Since people assme they will be the same, it seems to have worked ; }

not sure how a crossover for that would work
Click to expand...

No different than any other passive crossover design; you just base components choice on a different impedance value, which incidentally is different yet at the crossover points, usually.
 
#125
rpsands said:
The B&C driver looks like a pretty good fit - more xmax than a 3015 but less than a 3015LF, and should take up less space of course. I suggest you ask for it tall, to get that 18 sound up near your ears!

One very nice thing about B&C is the availability of 4 ohm 15s - not sure how a crossover for that would work, but that could be really nice for say a Shuttle 6.0 or a Little Mark II :)
Click to expand...

I plan to lean my 15/6.5 cab back particularly on smaller stages so I can better hear myself. I'm having rubber feet installed on the bottom, and Don told me the casters are removable, so I can just remove the back casters, and VOILA! :bassist:

Speaking of the lighter weight heads, is it true that they really don't run ideally at 8 ohms? I'm considering a more powerful head, and it wouldn't hurt if the new head is also lighter than my current Pro Bass 500. If the lighter weight heads don't run ideally at 8 ohms, I guess I'll be considering other options like the GK 700 or 1001RB...

Some lighter weight heads I'm currently considering: Mark Bass LMIII and F1 or F 500, GB Shuttle 6.0, and GK MB2-500.
 
#126
bassplayer7770 said:
I plan to lean my 15/6.5 cab back particularly on smaller stages so I can better hear myself. I'm having rubber feet installed on the bottom, and Don told me the casters are removable, so I can just remove the back casters, and VOILA! :bassist:

Speaking of the lighter weight heads, is it true that they really don't run ideally at 8 ohms? I'm considering a more powerful head, and it wouldn't hurt if the new head is also lighter than my current Pro Bass 500. If the lighter weight heads don't run ideally at 8 ohms, I guess I'll be considering other options like the GK 700 or 1001RB...

Some lighter weight heads I'm currently considering: Mark Bass LMIII and F1 or F 500, GB Shuttle 6.0, and GK MB2-500.
Click to expand...

The 8ohm thing is more of a power issue than a design issue. IMO, since the lighter weight heads are, for the most part, moderate power, the wattage at 8ohms sometimes results in these amps (lightweight or otherwise) running out of headroom and compressing a bit at their lower power level of 250-300 watts at 8ohms.

If you aren't using playing techniques that pump a lot of big transients into your rig (like slapping or really digging in with a pick), you should be completely fine. If you are a slapper, etc., you might want to find a head (again, lightweight or otherwise) that puts a bit more power out at 8ohms (i.e., 500 watts or so).

That being said, the F500 just SLAMMED into the 15/6.5 that we tested.

IMO and IME!
 
#127
KJung said:
The 8ohm thing is more of a power issue than a design issue. IMO, since the lighter weight heads are, for the most part, moderate power, the wattage at 8ohms sometimes results in these amps (lightweight or otherwise) running out of headroom and compressing a bit at their lower power level of 250-300 watts at 8ohms.

If you aren't using playing techniques that pump a lot of big transients into your rig (like slapping or really digging in with a pick), you should be completely fine. If you are a slapper, etc., you might want to find a head (again, lightweight or otherwise) that puts a bit more power out at 8ohms (i.e., 500 watts or so).

That being said, the F500 just SLAMMED into the 15/6.5 that we tested.

IMO and IME!
Click to expand...

Ultimately, I'm looking for an amp that puts out a MINIMUM of 300 watts @ 8 ohms. My current amp only puts out 200 watts @ 8 ohms.

I don't Slap much, but I do a little bit. I mostly play fingerstyle Rock.

I tried an F1 at Guitar Center yesterday, but it was at low volume. I was struck by the VLE control. Seemed interesting.

After I get my cab, I'll have to try out some heads with it. My buddy has a LMII I could test out. Unfortunately, my local GC doesn't carry Genz Benz in the store... :mad:
 
#128
bassplayer7770 said:
Ultimately, I'm looking for an amp that puts out a MINIMUM of 300 watts @ 8 ohms. My current amp only puts out 200 watts @ 8 ohms.

I don't Slap much, but I do a little bit. I mostly play fingerstyle Rock.

I tried an F1 at Guitar Center yesterday, but it was at low volume. I was struck by the VLE control. Seemed interesting.

After I get my cab, I'll have to try out some heads with it. My buddy has a LMII I could test out. Unfortunately, my local GC doesn't carry Genz Benz in the store... :mad:
Click to expand...

The F1/F500 sounded VERY good to me with this cab.

FYI, the VLE control is simply a passive tone control (passive treble/upper mid rolloff) that is virtually identical to the passive tone control on a P or J bass type instrument. It's a GREAT control if you don't have one of these very natural sounding passive tone controls on your bass. If you do have one on your bass, quite frankly, the VLE is redundant.
 
#129
KJung said:
The F1/F500 sounded VERY good to me with this cab.

FYI, the VLE control is simply a passive tone control (passive treble/upper mid rolloff) that is virtually identical to the passive tone control on a P or J bass type instrument. It's a GREAT control if you don't have one of these very natural sounding passive tone controls on your bass. If you do have one on your bass, quite frankly, the VLE is redundant.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was using one of the basses at GC, and the action was terribly high. I didn't mess with the controls on the bass too much. I do have a good tone control on my bass, so, yeah, that would be redundant.

Thanks for the heads up. I admit I haven't done much research on the Mark Bass heads.
 
#130
I'm going to have to make the trek out to your place some day and compare the LMkII to the F1 to the Shuttle. I alwayls liked the slim look of the F1, but I've never played through one. BTW, did Don bring that 2x12 out to you yet?

Ralf
KJung said:
The F1/F500 sounded VERY good to me with this cab.

FYI, the VLE control is simply a passive tone control (passive treble/upper mid rolloff) that is virtually identical to the passive tone control on a P or J bass type instrument. It's a GREAT control if you don't have one of these very natural sounding passive tone controls on your bass. If you do have one on your bass, quite frankly, the VLE is redundant.
Click to expand...
 
#131
rpatter said:
I spent much of the day Saturday measuring and playing through Don's 15/6. I had pretty much the same observations as Ken (although I think he understand the beauty of the tolex). The LPad set at 10 o'clock worked for me too. Surprisingly, when I measured it with the LPad set to the 12 o'clock position, the mid was about 2 db lower than the woofer. So 10 o'clock would be around 3 db down!

Anyway, the actual crossover point of my "untrue" crossover is around 1300Hz and the mid was indeed padded. I've designed a 700 Hz crossover for Don's version of the fEarful 15/6. It differs from the Passwind crossover in that there is less overlap of the drivers. Passwind's crossover allows the 3015LF to "breathe" more.

Ralf
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update Ralf. FWIW, I built five low pass boards with varying slopes, and the one I posted is more or less the middle of the builds. That was what I liked best for the fEarful 12/6. I haven't tried to design a fEarful 15/6-specific crossover yet, but what you are doing potentially makes sense to me given the lower response spike of the 15 compared to the 12. Greenboy asked me to just change the padding on my 12/6 design so builders would have something to work with for now. He's heard the results in DSP emulation and was happy it. Sounds like we used the right amount of padding too...;)

Anyhow, the fEarful threads are meant to be open source for design input, and I appreciate you sharing what are really proprietary business related aspects of your design. And there's always more than one way to skin a cat, eh?
 
#135
rpatter said:
I'm going to have to make the trek out to your place some day and compare the LMkII to the F1 to the Shuttle. I alwayls liked the slim look of the F1, but I've never played through one. BTW, did Don bring that 2x12 out to you yet?

Ralf
Click to expand...

Any time. I'm just blocks away from Don's house/workshop.

No, I haven't heard the 212 yet.
 
#137
rpsands said:
Are you and Ralf going to ear-test the new lower crossover he's worked up based on Passinwind's model, ya think? I'm cool with that, as I believe it's my cab that's going to have it.
Click to expand...

I'm here to serve:D

Seriously, if I'm around, and Don feels like bringing it over, I'm game. I'm a bit swamped this week, then out for a long Holiday weekend. However, if your cab is ready next week, I'll enjoy checking it out.

K
 

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