Low Down Sound 15/6.5 Cab

[rpsands]

And I just might. That's why I've been enjoying your thread. I'm sending Don a separate e-mail regarding the 15/6 and a couple of other things.

With the reborn interest in 15s over the past year ot two, it sounds like Don's 15/6 might appeal to quite a few players. I have a Berg HT115 that I still love. Can you compare them?

Bluesy Soul

Louder, lower, and better mids - don't even have to try one.

 

[3wavylines]

So as we go up in efficiency it appears to cost us bass energy because the -3 dB frequency moves upwards, but in reality the output at 41 Hz hasn't changed; its relative level to the rest of the spectrum that's changing.

OK, so to get flat response (especially in a smaller box) it costs you overall efficiency.

It's making a bit more sense to me now. Thanks!

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Yes that's it 3wavylines; good job of playing through despite my bad grammar there!

 

[Bluesy Soul]

OK, so to get flat response (especially in a smaller box) it costs you overall efficiency.

It's making a bit more sense to me now. Thanks!

Welcome to Hoffman's Iron Law which states you can have two, and only two, of the following three:
-low bass response;
-loud volume (i.e., high efficiency); and
-small cabinet size.

You'll see frequent references to it here, if you haven't already.

Bluesy Soul

 

[Chef]

You know that cab that Ken Jung tested?

It's here at my house now. More later.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

You know that cab that Ken Jung tested?

It's here at my house now. More later.

Awesome! Did you buy it, or is a prototype that's floating around all the cab gurus?

 

[Chef]

I bought it...

 

[matrok]

So, how does it sound with a Reverend?

 

[Chef]

Matt; you want P/J or 5L? Both are wearing nickel rounds....

 

[Chef]

This is a "Don Built" 15/6, and not a Fearful design. As such, the box is shorter. It measures ~22.5x23x16 @ 42lbs
Em 3015LF, 18Sound Mid driver; crossed at ~ 1.3khz, with an l-pad/attenuator. 8 ohm/500 watt tag on the back.

My other ''reference cab'' to test against: LDS 2x12+2x6 loaded with deltaliteII neo 12's and (I believe) alpha 6's; no attenuator..the 6's aren't adjustable. 26x23x16 @ 48lbs. 4 ohms, 500 watt tag on the back.

The Mesa M6 is big, loud, fat, clean.

1) Is the 15/6 design The Best and Most Miraculous Thing Since Powdered Toast?
Well...after all the dang hype around here, no. Kinda like The Big Summer Movie that's already been Pimped Out for 8 weeks. No way it can live up to that, nice as it might be.............
2) Is it A Fine Thing?
Well yeah! It's a design that intrigued me from the beginning.
3) So...so what?
So...if you don't need a horn, this cab rawks. The 18 Sound mid is adjustable for how much high end content you want, and it does it's job admirably. The 3015LF moves some air. More than my 3015 loaded Mesa Diesels????...????
Meh...mebbee, but it doesn't feel any different, I think the 3015LF "ups the cabs ability to take a Whipping and Keep On Ticking."
You up the volume, or up the bass, and it just pretty well delivers. It doesn't compress or complain. I haven't pushed it Gawd Awful Hard yet, but I have a big outdoor job tomorrow, and I sure will then.
4) How's it stack up against that 2x12+2x6?????
Danged if they don't sound just about the same. The 2x12 is a 4 ohm box, so, the M6 is delivering more watts. The 2x12's 2x6's don't have an attenuator, so "they're all on." They deliver enough top end content-if you don't need KenJung type Spankalicious highs; which are nice enough, but not always required by me.
The LDS 15/6 with the mid-driver attenuator set at noon is delivering about the same amount of top end content
The 2x12 feels a little fatter, and a little looser "down there," while the 15/6 just holds together and feels tighter.

As KJ noted; the 15/6 ain't gonna be your thing if you're putting a Sadowsky Modern/Peavey Cirrus or MTD type bass in there, and expect a Berg AE410 result.
But, I did force feed it my Lakland 5501 with Nord DC5's and DR HiBeams, and it sounded nice enough...it "didn't sound like that bass sounds when running thru a cab with a horn," but hey, guess what...this cab don't have a horn!
I also feed it P with flats, P with rounds, J with flats, J with rounds...it does a marvelous job delivering those.
To get "motown/flatwound sound" dialed in, you're gonna have to back the mid-driver down-but hey, you can The 2x12+2x6 you're gonna have to back passive tone off at the bass, or make a trim at the amp.
If you're P or J with nickel rounds guy...man, the 15/6 can deliver that. Nice lows, not tubby, smooth transition thru the mids, and sweet top end content.

I *love* that 2x12+2x6; so whether this cab is a keeper for me, or a duplication; I'm not sure. It's a little smaller, but, it's a little deeper to. Either is an easy one handed carry.
The 2x12 is a very useful one cab solution and easily carries any bigger job I need to do, and sounds nice a lower voluem gigs too.
I'll have to see how the 15/6 does with those two evaluation points.

Lastly..."What about the Fearful Design-and it's crossover point-versus the LDS design??????
Well, pure speculation on my part as I haven't had a Fearful Design to play with. I believe that cab has more room for the 3015LF to do it's thing. So far, ''it doesn't feel choked in thsi cab."
If the Fearful cab being a little taller makes the top end content more legible...well, that'd be alright I guess, but don't feel like I'm working against a deficit with either LDS cab.
The crossover in the LDS cab being set at ~1.3khz doesn't seem to cause any hole in the middle, or lack of mid/top end response...If an ~800hz crossover sounded better, I don't know that it would be a great big difference, or one that I'd hear blindfolded. I'd love to have the ability to a/b them...

that's all for now.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

If you're P or J with nickel rounds guy...man, the 15/6 can deliver that. Nice lows, not tubby, smooth transition thru the mids, and sweet top end content.

Nice!

To give some perspective, a pair of commonly used bass drivers - Deltalite 2512 II's - can be 4 ohms, with a sensitivity of ~103db (from 50 hz on up probably in a good ported cab).

A Kappalite 3015LF is ~100db but goes down to 35hz or so (-10db).

But, a 3015LF can eat 450 watts before being displacement limited, and a pair of 2512 IIs even with extended xmax is probably closer to 250 watts depending on the cab tuning, maybe 350. And the 3015LF can take a lot more than 450 before it explodes, that's just when it gets over 10% distortion.

I would say it will be as loud or slightly louder, go a lot lower, but it will take more watts to do it, so not really more efficient.

One deltalite should handle around 125-175w with the extended xmax, generally, depending on tuning and the high pass you use. Definitely requires a steep 40hz high pass to achieve that, if you use a 5-string.

This is a "Don Built" 15/6, and not a Fearful design. As such, the box is shorter. It measures ~22.5x23x16 @ 42lbs
Em 3015LF, 18Sound Mid driver; crossed at ~ 1.3khz, with an l-pad/attenuator. 8 ohm/500 watt tag on the back.

My other ''reference cab'' to test against: LDS 2x12+2x6 loaded with deltaliteII neo 12's and (I believe) alpha 6's; no attenuator..the 6's aren't adjustable. 26x23x16 @ 48lbs. 4 ohms, 500 watt tag on the back.

4) How's it stack up against that 2x12+2x6?????
Danged if they don't sound just about the same. The 2x12 is a 4 ohm box, so, the M6 is delivering more watts. The 2x12 feels a little fatter, and a little looser "down there," while the 15/6 just holds together and feels tighter.

Very interesting different opinions, for me at least.

 

[Chef]

Here's what I have to say about all that multi-quoting:

I've used that DeltaLiteII loaded 2x12, a lot. Used to throw a MusicMan HD150 tube head thru it; more recently either the Walkabout or the M6. I'm not "gentle with it," and have used it as I would use either my 410UL or AE410: as a one cab solution for bigger venues. I don't dial up the bass at the amp or the bass; but I don't spare the power either. I've not had any issues with the 2x12 cab.

I'm not prepared to answer if the LDS 15/6 will handle a situation where I've found 410UL/AE410/2x12+2x6 to be an acceptable solution. But, I've got a big outdoor job tomorrow, and the 15/6+M6 is what I'm taking. Spare the rod, spoil the cab.

 

[bassplayer7770]

I'm not prepared to answer if the LDS 15/6 will handle a situation where I've found 410UL/AE410/2x12+2x6 to be an acceptable solution. But, I've got a big outdoor job tomorrow, and the 15/6+M6 is what I'm taking. Spare the rod, spoil the cab.

I look forward your update! I'm definitely interested how that M6 sounds through it as well since I might consider that or the M9 myself.

 

[Chef]

It sounds nice. I tried the MarkBass F1 briefly. It works well enough, but I prefer the M6, generally speaking.
I also tried the Walkabout; again, nice enough, but with the 2x12+2x6, and the 15/6, I like the extra top end clarity the M6 brings.

 

[Blues Cat]

You also have to keep in mind Chef that the high and low pass are shallow slopes. So you're still getting below 1300hz thru the mid, it's just gradually rolled off.

If you look at a graph of both speaker's response you can see why Ralf chose 1300hz.

Looking forward to the outdoor gig review.

 

[Ryan Mohr]

Here's what I have to say about all that multi-quoting:

I've used that DeltaLiteII loaded 2x12, a lot. Used to throw a MusicMan HD150 tube head thru it; more recently either the Walkabout or the M6. I'm not "gentle with it," and have used it as I would use either my 410UL or AE410: as a one cab solution for bigger venues. I don't dial up the bass at the amp or the bass; but I don't spare the power either. I've not had any issues with the 2x12 cab.

I'm not prepared to answer if the LDS 15/6 will handle a situation where I've found 410UL/AE410/2x12+2x6 to be an acceptable solution. But, I've got a big outdoor job tomorrow, and the 15/6+M6 is what I'm taking. Spare the rod, spoil the cab.

So it's ok to drive a pair of 2512s with a 500 watt head at 4 ohms. Haha I may be changing my mind again. Just really interesting that rpsands said it will only be 250-350 watts for two Deltalites, and greenboy said even lower. But, you can't deny your real-world experience and a/b'ing.

I'm looking forward to the gig report!

 

[Chef]

Graphs, charts, slopes...that's all great on paper.

What matters to me is: does it work out in the end.

So far, the answer seems to be "yes."

 

[greenboy]

So it's ok to drive a pair of 2512s with a 500 watt head at 4 ohms. Haha I may be changing my mind again. Just really interesting that rpsands said it will only be 250-350 watts for two Deltalites, and greenboy said even lower. But, you can't deny your real-world experience and a/b'ing.

Short form, the Deltalites will not handle nearly as much concentrated content down low as the 3015LF. That's borne out in real world experience and in investigating the T-S parameters. See that bit about taking a lickin' and keepin' on tickin'?

 

[greenboy]

Graphs, charts, slopes...that's all great on paper.

What matters to me is: does it work out in the end.

Uh, yeah, I don't play or gig. Ya CAUGHT ME!

 

[Chef]

DeltaLiteII 12's:
# Power rating: ........................... 250 Watts RMS
# Useable frequency range: ............ 48Hz to 4kHz

I'm no engineer, and perhaps real world limits of that driver, or thermal limits of that driver are something I should be more concerned about.
So far, that 2x12+2x6 cab has been more than happy to eat 300 watts of Walkabout or 600 watts of M6 in any situation I've asked it to; doing what I do.
I'll say the same thing about this situation that I said when someone was worried about me bridging 1200 watts of WT800B into a 475 watt rated Henry 8x8:
I'm not advocating turning it all the way up, turning the bass all the way up, and slapping the heck out of your bass. But when used by me, the way I use stuff, to get meet my tone and volume needs, it's not been any kind of problem over repeated long term use.

Is the 15/6 capapble of taking more power/abuse than a 2x12 DeltaLite loaded cab? Heck, I dunno. If the 2x12 scenario is fragile-and yet it survives my use, I reckon I'm not likely to push the 15/6 hard enough to find out.

Typically, my rig is all there is for any job I do. I don't need to be Mega-Loud in any band I work with. Typically, vocals, piano, sax and maybe the kick drum are all that's in the PA, which is either one Bose Stick/sub, or a Mackie powered head with 2 12+horn out front. So, my needs may not be your needs. I may not work gear as hard as other guys might. Ya follow? Ok then

So it's ok to drive a pair of 2512s with a 500 watt head at 4 ohms. Haha I may be changing my mind again. Just really interesting that rpsands said it will only be 250-350 watts for two Deltalites, and greenboy said even lower. But, you can't deny your real-world experience and a/b'ing.

I'm looking forward to the gig report!