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Low Down Sound Club, Part Four

#21
With all due respect to everyone there is no denying that Don is using Greenboy plans. Greenboy is the one who spent countless hours on the design and had the insight to put those particular drivers with those particular dimensions and form factor in a cab with very specific porting. There is good reason that these cabs sound as great as they do and its because of the science behind it that Greenboy perfected. As we know, GB was kind enough to make the plans available to everyone in the bass community for all our benefit. It was not his intent for one particular builder to use the plans for that builder's profit.

Perhaps the buyer is requesting a GB spec'd cab (I know I would), but *personally* I would donate a few bucks to GB and pass that increase of price on to the buyer. One could do so via paypal on the fEARful Forum. If you want a premium, well-designed product, paying a bit more is worth it. To put it another way what if a builder bought BFM Jack cab plans once and used them for multiple buyers? Doesnt seem quite right does it?

That said, I have dealt with Don and he is a great guy and his craftmanship is superb.

Anyway, thats my .02. :)
 
#22
::::BASSIST:::: said:
With all due respect to everyone there is no denying that Don is using Greenboy plans. Greenboy is the one who spent countless hours on the design and had the insight to put those particular drivers with those particular dimensions and form factor in a cab with very specific porting. There is good reason that these cabs sound as great as they do and its because of the science behind it that Greenboy perfected. As we know, GB was kind enough to make the plans available to everyone in the bass community for all our benefit. It was not his intent for one particular builder to use the plans for that builder's profit.

Perhaps the buyer is requesting a GB spec'd cab (I know I would), but *personally* I would donate a few bucks to GB and pass that increase of price on to the buyer. One could do so via paypal on the fEARful Forum. If you want a premium, well-designed product, paying a bit more is worth it. To put it another way what if a builder bought BFM Jack cabs plans once and used them for multiple buyers? Doesnt seem quite right does it?

That said, I have dealt with Don and he is a great guy and his craftmanship is superb.

Anyway, thats my .02. :)
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Nope. Don makes a wide variety of mid loaded cabs, including some with the 3015LF and 18sound mid driver. He will use various porting designs (front side and rear), and his own crossover or an appropriate off the shelf crossover. While the 12/6 an 15/6 designs are a pretty small part of his business, a while back when we talked about it, he mentioned that the 3012LF and Faital driver in a rear ported box was his favorite and also I believe his 'best seller' of that 'type' of box. Again, Don has been doing mid driver loaded cab designs for over a decade.

He will build 810 sealed cabs also but really isn't using Ampeg's plans. He kind of does his own thing for better or worse.

However, if someone asks him to do a properly tuned box with a 3012LF and 18sound mid driver with a front port, there isn't a lot of different ways to do that:smug:, and just like most 410's, all these executions will look very similar.

Of course, the tone of the LDS 12/6 and 15/6 cabs will SOUND very similar to other designs using the same non-proprietary components, since it is pretty much 'off the shelf' components (versus, for example, the very different sound of the Epifani 410 or Bergantino 410, etc., due to proprietary drivers, etc.), even though they look very similar. Some feel the Greenboy crossover is the best, and that would be an excellent reason to choose the 'fEARful' version of cab with these particular drivers using a builder who will build an 'exact' fEArful.

Again, stock speakers, pretty basic WinSID box and tuning, stock mid drivers. Kind of funny that Don gets hammered by the same people for 'copying fEARfuls' and at the same time ' not following the fEARful plans! Silly.

It would be like saying 'Don is using Epifani's design' when he builds a 410. Makes no sense. Is Greenboy 'copying' Don's design now that he is putting out plans for a two way 8" box, similar to what Don has been building for YEARS? No... basic stuff, stock drivers.
 
#23
::::BASSIST:::: said:
With all due respect to everyone there is no denying that Don is using Greenboy plans. Greenboy is the one who spent countless hours on the design and had the insight to put those particular drivers with those particular dimensions and form factor in a cab with very specific porting. There is good reason that these cabs sound as great as they do and its because of the science behind it that Greenboy perfected. As we know, GB was kind enough to make the plans available to everyone in the bass community for all our benefit. It was not his intent for one particular builder to use the plans for that builder's profit.

Perhaps the buyer is requesting a GB spec'd cab (I know I would), but *personally* I would donate a few bucks to GB and pass that increase of price on to the buyer. One could do so via paypal on the fEARful Forum. If you want a premium, well-designed product, paying a bit more is worth it. To put it another way what if a builder bought BFM Jack cabs plans once and used them for multiple buyers? Doesnt seem quite right does it?

That said, I have dealt with Don and he is a great guy and his craftmanship is superb.

Anyway, thats my .02. :)
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As far as the BFM plans go, Bassist, that is exactly what happens. Bill sells the plans; once you buy them, and this is including the authorized builders, AFAIK, you are free to make as many as you want, and sell to whomever. Bill makes his money off the plans. When Greenboy made the plans public, I thought to myself, wow, this is gonna come back and bite him in the ass, in more ways than one.
 
#24
I deal with intellectual property rights as part of my day job. When IP is placed in a Community its use and any associated royalties are normally protected by a license agreement. A user of the IP would normally agree to "accept" the terms of the license agreement and then be bound by its terms and conditions.

I'm not taking sides on the argument and I don't know the conditions under which the plans were made available. Just sayin'.
 
#25
jnewmark said:
As far as the BFM plans go, Bassist, that is exactly what happens. Bill sells the plans; once you buy them, and this is including the authorized builders, AFAIK, you are free to make as many as you want, and sell to whomever. Bill makes his money off the plans. When Greenboy made the plans public, I thought to myself, wow, this is gonna come back and bite him in the ass, in more ways than one.
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Oh, I did not know that. I thought it was a one plan per build type deal.
 
#26
JxBass said:
I deal with intellectual property rights as part of my day job. When IP is placed in a Community its use and any associated royalties are normally protected by a license agreement. A user of the IP would normally agree to "accept" the terms of the license agreement and then be bound by its terms and conditions.

I'm not taking sides on the argument and I don't know the conditions under which the plans were made available. Just sayin'.
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Kind of a moot point with Don, since he doesn't use other peoples 'plans' at all. For better or worse, Don, loves to do his own thing.

That again is why I chuckle about Don getting hammered simultaneously for 'not following the fEArful plans' and at the same time 'copying the fEarful cabs'. Kind of like Alice in Wonderland with some of these guys. Again, it would be like Epifani complaining if Don built a 410 with Eminence neo's and the same brand of off the shelf tweeter that Epi uses (which he does!).

Again, designing a standard ported box with WinSID around off the shelf drivers is not exactly rocket science. And, for those who think the exact fEARful design is the 'best', there are ways to get those exact boxes by using the appropriate approved dealers.

And the number of boxes that are similar in design to fEArfuls (i.e., the front port and width/depth/height) are a trivial percent of his mid driver boxes, so kind of a 'tempest in a teapot' anyway. Most of the 15/6 and 12/6 boxes Don makes or rear ported and are designed for a full sized rack head to sit on top. Don's primary love are sealed multi 10 cabs and 8" driver loaded boxes.

Complaining that other builders also make boxes appropriately designed for off the shelf drivers is a bit disengenuous to me, and suggests 'other stuff is going on' (i.e., frustration from bad business decisions, or whatever).
 
#27
KJung said:
Nope. Don makes a wide variety of mid loaded cabs, including some with the 3015LF and 18sound mid driver. He will use various porting designs (front side and rear), and his own crossover or an appropriate off the shelf crossover. While the 12/6 an 15/6 designs are a pretty small part of his business, a while back when we talked about it, he mentioned that the 3012LF and Faital driver in a rear ported box was his favorite and also I believe his 'best seller' of that 'type' of box. Again, Don has been doing mid driver loaded cab designs for over a decade.

He will build 810 sealed cabs also but really isn't using Ampeg's plans. He kind of does his own thing for better or worse.

However, if someone asks him to do a properly tuned box with a 3012LF and 18sound mid driver with a front port, there isn't a lot of different ways to do that:smug:, and just like most 410's, all these executions will look very similar.

Of course, the tone of the LDS 12/6 and 15/6 cabs will SOUND very similar to other designs using the same non-proprietary components, since it is pretty much 'off the shelf' components (versus, for example, the very different sound of the Epifani 410 or Bergantino 410, etc., due to proprietary drivers, etc.), even though they look very similar. Some feel the Greenboy crossover is the best, and that would be an excellent reason to choose the 'fEARful' version of cab with these particular drivers using a builder who will build an 'exact' fEArful.

Again, stock speakers, pretty basic WinSID box and tuning, stock mid drivers. Kind of funny that Don gets hammered by the same people for 'copying fEARfuls' and at the same time ' not following the fEARful plans! Silly.

It would be like saying 'Don is using Epifani's design' when he builds a 410. Makes no sense. Is Greenboy 'copying' Don's design now that he is putting out plans for a two way 8" box, similar to what Don has been building for YEARS? No... basic stuff, stock drivers.
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Alright man, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but I disagree. :)
 
#29
That again is why I chuckle about Don getting hammered simultaneously for 'not following the fEArful plans' and at the same time 'copying the fEarful cabs'. Kind of like Alice in Wonderland with some of these guys. Again, it would be like Epifani complaining if Don built a 410 with Eminence neo's and the same brand of off the shelf tweeter that Epi uses (which he does!).
Click to expand...

I chuckle at that too.

As someone mentioned, for years Don was the only builder who would build a fEarful - there were no "Authorized" builders. He was recommended in a lot of the early fEarful threads for people who couldn't build their own. That's where I first heard about Don and the good quality of his cab builds.

And for much of that time Don pushed back - he wanted to use his own design. Again, lots of posts in the early fEarful threads about "trying to talk Don into building to the fEarful spec" rather than his own mid-loaded plans.

So I see this from a different perspective - you're a cab builder, and a sizeable contingent of people come to you saying "I want a cab built to these specs, they're free, and I only want the cab if you follow these specs". And you try to talk to them about how you'd prefer to build it, and they say "these specs or nothing". Now most of these folks are not cab designers, they're read on the Interwebz "the best cab is a fEarful, and MUST be built exactly to these specs".
And that's what they say.

So you build 'em.
Crime? Bad intent? I don't think so.

Should Don participate in forums? From my limited interactions with Don (and with a lot of craftspeople of his generation) he doesn't spend much time online - answering email is about as far as he gets. Kudos to folks like BFM who do, but a lot don't.

Perhaps he could charge a bit more and send a royalty to GB when he builds a "true fEarful". That seems like a reasonable way to go, and one would think it would help to ease the friction between Don and GB, but it's not my call either way.

Oh, and Chef, sorry you got a GB smackdown. Have a beer to help ease the hurt.
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#35
IMO this is a good post that catches some of the subtleties. I'm one who ordered a 15/6 cab from Don well before there was any other source for such a finished cab. I had neither the tools, skills, nor interest in building my own and was delighted at the result. Of course, the box did not strictly adhere to the fEarful spec and was, quite frankly, ridiculed by some for various features that were, in their eyes, shortcomings (different porting, variable mid pad, box shape, blah blah blah ad nauseum). The cab killed. I dug Don's way of doing business and was thoroughly satisfied. I recently ordered a 12/6 to match. It won't adhere to Greenboy's plans, so it is not a fEarful cab and no money is due Greenboy, although I respect his contribution to the TB community. On the other hand, IMHO, aggressive/insulting posts by him or anyone else do nothing but make others with opposing views dig in their proverbial heels and become even less open to listening. If someone wants me to listen to his side, respect and calm logic are the tools required for a chance of success.




kesslari said:
I chuckle at that too.

As someone mentioned, for years Don was the only builder who would build a fEarful - there were no "Authorized" builders. He was recommended in a lot of the early fEarful threads for people who couldn't build their own. That's where I first heard about Don and the good quality of his cab builds.

And for much of that time Don pushed back - he wanted to use his own design. Again, lots of posts in the early fEarful threads about "trying to talk Don into building to the fEarful spec" rather than his own mid-loaded plans.

So I see this from a different perspective - you're a cab builder, and a sizeable contingent of people come to you saying "I want a cab built to these specs, they're free, and I only want the cab if you follow these specs". And you try to talk to them about how you'd prefer to build it, and they say "these specs or nothing". Now most of these folks are not cab designers, they're read on the Interwebz "the best cab is a fEarful, and MUST be built exactly to these specs".
And that's what they say.

So you build 'em.
Crime? Bad intent? I don't think so.

Should Don participate in forums? From my limited interactions with Don (and with a lot of craftspeople of his generation) he doesn't spend much time online - answering email is about as far as he gets. Kudos to folks like BFM who do, but a lot don't.

Perhaps he could charge a bit more and send a royalty to GB when he builds a "true fEarful". That seems like a reasonable way to go, and one would think it would help to ease the friction between Don and GB, but it's not my call either way.

Oh, and Chef, sorry you got a GB smackdown. Have a beer to help ease the hurt.
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#38
jnewmark said:
As far as the BFM plans go, Bassist, that is exactly what happens. Bill sells the plans; once you buy them, and this is including the authorized builders, AFAIK, you are free to make as many as you want, and sell to whomever. Bill makes his money off the plans. When Greenboy made the plans public, I thought to myself, wow, this is gonna come back and bite him in the ass, in more ways than one.
Click to expand...

No, not correct: While Bill does sell plans to whomever wishes to buy them, he explicitly asks that the buyer use those plans strictly for his own build, and that he NOT build for the purpose of selling those cabs to others. Selling genuinely used cabs - those you had initially built or purchased for your own use - is permitted. And authorized BFM builders are covered under an entirely separate agreement.

I know this because I recently joined the BFM forum - and because I purchased copies of all BFM cab plans on the CD that Bill offers. The policy is explicitly stated - both in a sticky thread in the BFM forum, as well as in the license agreement for the plans themselves. :hmm:

::::BASSIST:::: said:
Oh, I did not know that. I thought it was a one plan per build type deal.
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Strictly speaking, it's a "one plan per type of build" thing. Meaning that if you buy the plan for a Jack 10, for example, you're permitted to build as many Jack 10s for yourself as you like - all for the price of one plan. You want to build a Jack 12 as well? Buy the plan for the Jack 12... :hmm:

MM
 
#40
MysticMichael said:
No, not correct: While Bill does sell plans to whomever wishes to buy them, he explicitly asks that the buyer use those plans strictly for his own build, and that he NOT build for the purpose of selling those cabs to others. Selling genuinely used cabs - those you had initially built or purchased for your own use - is permitted. And authorized BFM builders are covered under an entirely separate agreement.

I know this because I recently joined the BFM forum - and because I purchased copies of all BFM cab plans on the CD that Bill offers. The policy is explicitly stated - both in a sticky thread in the BFM forum, as well as in the license agreement for the plans themselves. :hmm:



It is... :hmm:

MM
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I stand corrected. :)
 

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