Low Down Sound Club, Part Four

[thudfromafar]

Nope. Don makes a wide variety of mid loaded cabs, including some with the 3015LF and 18sound mid driver. He will use various porting designs (front side and rear), and his own crossover or an appropriate off the shelf crossover. While the 12/6 an 15/6 designs are a pretty small part of his business, a while back when we talked about it, he mentioned that the 3012LF and Faital driver in a rear ported box was his favorite and also I believe his 'best seller' of that 'type' of box. Again, Don has been doing mid driver loaded cab designs for over a decade.

He will build 810 sealed cabs also but really isn't using Ampeg's plans. He kind of does his own thing for better or worse.

However, if someone asks him to do a properly tuned box with a 3012LF and 18sound mid driver with a front port, there isn't a lot of different ways to do that, and just like most 410's, all these executions will look very similar.

Of course, the tone of the LDS 12/6 and 15/6 cabs will SOUND very similar to other designs using the same non-proprietary components, since it is pretty much 'off the shelf' components (versus, for example, the very different sound of the Epifani 410 or Bergantino 410, etc., due to proprietary drivers, etc.), even though they look very similar. Some feel the Greenboy crossover is the best, and that would be an excellent reason to choose the 'fEARful' version of cab with these particular drivers using a builder who will build an 'exact' fEArful.

Again, stock speakers, pretty basic WinSID box and tuning, stock mid drivers. Kind of funny that Don gets hammered by the same people for 'copying fEARfuls' and at the same time ' not following the fEARful plans! Silly.

It would be like saying 'Don is using Epifani's design' when he builds a 410. Makes no sense. Is Greenboy 'copying' Don's design now that he is putting out plans for a two way 8" box, similar to what Don has been building for YEARS? No... basic stuff, stock drivers.

Don used fEarful plans to build my cab, he just didn't follow them exactly enough (which I asked for). I think that's the most obvious problem that many fEArful fans experienced, and potentially the only legal issue.

The fEARful isn't just some "WinISD" adventure, and you saying something like that is being extremely unfair and ignorant to what greenboy actually put into his project. Greenboy values performance and I think he just wants respect for what he did, which is completely understandable. Saying something like that is just disrespectful, especially after all the discussion you've seen about it.

And there's no doubt that greenboy's design boosted LDS business. I think if Don acknowledged that and took more care to design the cabs as greenboy intended (when that's what people asked for), gb & co wouldn't be upset. There's no legal issue with using the plans since they were released for free, it's just an unspoken respect kind of thing. The real problem is when Don got all the people who wanted a fEarful cab (because they couldn't DIY it), and then gave them something that was not really what they asked for. Some people are less upset about those "change of plans" than others, but regardless, that's what happened. And Don kinda brushed off those little details like they're an oversight and don't really matter.

All that said, I really like my LDS cab for the most part. I ended up paying 750 after shipping -- several hundred less than what I'd pay an authorized builder, but I also believe that I got several hundred dollars less cab. I'm going to change the x-overs which will push it to around the 900 mark anyways. If there were an authorized builder around when I got my cab, I would have gone with that option.

I guess if you want a cheaper cab, that's what you'll get. Still good but not fEarfully good If that doesn't matter to you then fine but might as well be aware of it before making a choice.

 

[JeffplaysBass]

Well, it's a ported cab with a fairly aggressive horn, so, it's not gonna sound like an ampeg 810.
I think I'd like it, but if you want a "vintage sounding cab" for your ampeg, it might not be the best choice.
Though with the horn turned off, it might work well for that sound.
It still won't "feel" like a sealed cab though.

Thanks, I will definitely try the horn off test...It seems like everyone here loves their LDS cabs...so hopefully this 8*8 will be good for me.

 

[guy n. cognito]

And there's no doubt that greenboy's design boosted LDS business.

I find this comment somewhat a "chicken and the egg" proposition. While Don certainly built a number of nEarful cabinets and benefited financially, one must wonder if the cab would have become as popular as it did (with dozens and dozens built) if Don hadn't stepped up and starting building them.

As far as the minor details that Don "skipped", he was very clear with me what details he would change from the specs and why. I was never mislead in the process. Now, I'm sure my cabinet would sound infinitely better if the mid was one inch closer to center, :roll eyes: but my tin ear wouldn't hear it anyway.

 

[WormtownBass]

Why did he cover the lf driver with his logo?

 

[guy n. cognito]

Why did he cover the lf driver with his logo?

This personally doesn't bother me too much. If the logo plate doesn't affect the sound, the the mics monitors, and my fat ass standing in front of it sure will.

 

[Ric Vice]

Thanks, I will definitely try the horn off test...It seems like everyone here loves their LDS cabs...so hopefully this 8*8 will be good for me.

Jeff,
I had Don build me a 2x8 Three Way cabinet several years ago. It is not a fEarful design, he came up with it himself. It's a spectacular cabinet, at the time he was able to use B&C Neo's. Don knows what he's doing.

Ric

 

[lomo]

Don's starting my 12-6 this week ))))

 

[wcriley]

Jeff,
I had Don build me a 2x8 Three Way cabinet several years ago. It is not a fEarful design, he came up with it himself. It's a spectacular cabinet, at the time he was able to use B&C Neo's. Don knows what he's doing.

Ric

Of course it's not a "fEARful design." None of the fEARful designs use 8" drivers.

 

[Jared Lash]

My LDS 15/6:

Powered by either of these:

 

[jnewmark]

Of course it's not a "fEARful design." None of the fEARful designs use 8" drivers.

True , they are called " Crazy Eights " .

 

[jnewmark]

Don's starting my 12-6 this week ))))

Did you go with the Faital mid ?

 

[lomo]

Did you go with the Faital mid ?

I want it to stack with the used LDS 2 way I bought off Sactobass, and that has the 18sound mid, which I actually like a lot. I even left out the attenuator, as the one on the 15-6 is dimed all the time. I recently found out that even though I will be moving back to Canada this summer, I'll still be with the band in upstate NY, so I no longer have to shed gear ))

 

[makohund]

Don used fEarful plans to build my cab, he just didn't follow them exactly enough (which I asked for).

The real problem is when Don got all the people who wanted a fEarful cab (because they couldn't DIY it), and then gave them something that was not really what they asked for.

I think that is probably the biggest issue. Satisfying a demand for a particularly designed item by delivering a forked version instead. (A software development term that I find very apropos here.) Those asking for a fEARful build were likely to end up with something similar to one, but different in various ways. Some agreed to changes. Some requested no changes, but got them anyway. Either way... a lot of people went that route because they wanted a fEARful, but came back with something that wasn't.

Yet they'd sometimes refer to them as if they were, and would refer others interested in a fEARful to a shop that usually turned out something different, maybe lesser, instead. (By the designers' measure, exceedingly well built though they may be.)

Call it a Trademark/Brand Dilution issue. An unfortunate circumstantial pairing... a cab designer that cares a lot about the details he spent a lot of time and effort on, and a cab builder that doesn't really like to build cabs to somebody else's plans. Add people knocking on his door wanting him to do just that... yeah, potential for issues there.

Two good responses:
- Build exactly what they are asking for
- Turn them away

A so-so, sometimes iffy response:
- Talk them into a series of changes instead, essentially forking it. (Fine, as long as it is clear that it is no longer the same product that was originally requested.)

A bad response:
- Agree to build what they are asking for, but deliver a forked design anyway.

Both of the latter happened enough times that the builder is not recommended for those seeking an actual fEARful. The designer's disapproval of this builder's response to early demand is no secret. Given that, to hear that someone aware of it might seek (and receive) personal help from this designer, then go and choose that builder anyway... well it leaves a sour note in my ear. Of course it's perfectly legal, and within anyone's right to do that. But those qualities alone aren't enough to keep something from landing on my "disappoint" list. Kudos for any voluntary contributions as an offset, but still.

 

[Thor]

Ok, let's see.

I want to buy a cab. I go shopping. I talk to different people.
Let's say 5 different people. I try to figure out what I want.
I choose one.

One of the 4 others complained because his project was not the one that was chosen.

If there is an overlap between GB and Don, then let them sort it out. That is a business issue, and they are all big boys, they can tussle about it between themselves.

AFAIK, Don has been in cab building a LONG time. Though GB's product name make be trademarked, the product, to my knowledge, is not patented. Correct me if I am wrong. I would be surprised if it could be because it comprises no new technology that is patentable. X-overs, drivers, boxes, ports, and so forth are not new. Building and optimizing such designs, while a wonderful idea, may not represent such a unique product that the designer can claim to be unique and unlike any other design and thus, patentable.

I think we are all well versed enough to know that tone is a very subjective thing and what sounds good and works well for one bassist does not for another. Good design is often about compromises and if there is one thing we see here, it is that no 2 designers quite agree on what gets on the train and what gets left on the platform design-wise.

Not every bass built meets everyones needs nor does every cab. People that want custom builds take a fair amount of risk in being disappointed in the final result.

Anyway, if this thread is going to be about the issue that Chef bought a cab and somebody doesn't like where he bought it, well then that's too bad. We can end the discussion here then.

 

[rpsands]

The issue is more about Don losing track of details or delivering things that are subtly different from what was agreed.

If you're a detail oriented guy who designed his own cabinet and crossover and want Don to replicate it exactly you can pretty much forget about it. And that's an important thing to know.

 

[BassyBill]

Ok, let's see.

I want to buy a cab. I go shopping. I talk to different people.
Let's say 5 different people. I try to figure out what I want.
I choose one.

One of the 4 others complained because his project was not the one that was chosen.

If there is an overlap between GB and Don, then let them sort it out. That is a business issue, and they are all big boys, they can tussle about it between themselves.

AFAIK, Don has been in cab building a LONG time. Though GB's product name make be trademarked, the product, to my knowledge, is not patented. Correct me if I am wrong. I would be surprised if it could be because it comprises no new technology that is patentable. X-overs, drivers, boxes, ports, and so forth are not new. Building and optimizing such designs, while a wonderful idea, may not represent such a unique product that the designer can claim to be unique and unlike any other design and thus, patentable.

I think we are all well versed enough to know that tone is a very subjective thing and what sounds good and works well for one bassist does not for another. Good design is often about compromises and if there is one thing we see here, it is that no 2 designers quite agree on what gets on the train and what gets left on the platform design-wise.

Not every bass built meets everyones needs nor does every cab. People that want custom builds take a fair amount of risk in being disappointed in the final result.

Anyway, if this thread is going to be about the issue that Chef bought a cab and somebody doesn't like where he bought it, well then that's too bad. We can end the discussion here then.

Exactly. Very well put - QFT.

 

[WormtownBass]

edited

 

[KJung]

The problem with LDS building nEARfuls is that he has not contributed anything in development, support, or marketing but he is profiting. Greenboy's builders have an agreement for royalty payment, but also they provide a great deal of support to the community. In fact, there are a number of LDS nEARful customers who take full advantage of the "free" support put forth by these experts.

When people buy "nEARfuls" it is because of the fEARful brand. A lot of hard work and expense is put forth by Greenboy and the builders to create the brand. Although LDS has legally found a way to sell around this, it is wrong that he is profiting off the fEARful brand without contributing to the royalties and continuing support.

This is not about the originality of the LDS cabs but rather someone cashing in on "the brand" without investing. It's not fair to the builders who are all honest, hardworking craftsmen who put countless hours into the development and support of the fEARful line.

Don, again, does not build nEarfuls any more than the 410's he builds are 'nEpifani's' or 'nBergantino's'. The nEarful name was coined by someone on Talkbass.

Don again has been building mid driver loaded cabs for over 10 years.

IF you want a custom cab built with off the shelf 3015LF drivers and an 18Sound mid driver, with an appropriately tuned WinSID designed box, and one of a variety of crossovers he has available (including nice custom hi end work from Ralf Patterson) he will build that just like he will build a 210 or a 212 or a 1-8".

I personally believe Don's rear ported 12/6 with Faital mid driver and Ralph Patterson custom crossover is the 'top of the line' for the 12/6 design, but that is just me.

The number of cabs Don has built that are in the same relative physical format as the fEarful cabs (i.e., tall and skinny) is probably under 10 in total, and a tiny amount of his build percentage. He has done quite a few 15/6's and 12/6's in significantly different formats.

Even when guys in the past have sent him the free 'fEARful' plans, for better or worse, he really doesn't use them. He does his own thing. I understand that has caused some consternation with a few customers, and that again is valid.

A totally VALID discussion is whether the exact fEARful spec is superior to what Don does. And, again, anyone who wants an exact fEARful spec should use a fEARful authorized builder.

If, on the other hand, you want a great 15/6 or 12/6 and are willing to let Don build to his idea's and spec's, the vast majority of owners seem to be very happy.

Don, for better or worse, is a true custom builder, and HATES doing the same thing twice. Just not his thing. He has NEVER been interested in making exact fEARful boxes or even doing a 410 the same way twice, and has no interest being an authorized builder for anyone (as you can imagine, he gets requests for this all the time, since his box building skills are so good). So, again, a VALID complaint against Don is that if you want him to build you a fEARFul, he won't.

 

[lomo]

Ok, let's see.

Though GB's product name make be trademarked, the product, to my knowledge, is not patented. Correct me if I am wrong. I would be surprised if it could be because it comprises no new technology that is patentable. X-overs, drivers, boxes, ports, and so forth are not new. Building and optimizing such designs, while a wonderful idea, may not represent such a unique product that the designer can claim to be unique and unlike any other design and thus, patentable.

Pretty much exposes all the backround noise to be just that. I have stopped using the "n" word. It's unbecoming to Don and LDS.

 

[Ric Vice]

Pretty much exposes all the backround noise to be just that. I have stopped using the "n" word. It's unbecoming to Don and LDS.

I'll take some pictures of my LDS 2x8 Three Way and perhaps the discussion can now move on to some of Don's other builds. They are really exceptional cabinets.

Ric