Low Down Sound Club: V2

[guy n. cognito]

+1 People seem to confuse 'able to handle' with 'needing'.

Per the reviews above (Nice!), that mid driver is VERY forward sounding, and even with the attenuator (which IMO is KEY for these cabs), I find that a head with a good hi mid control, centered somewhere in the 1K region, is key to controlling the 'gank' (especially when slapping). That mid driver provides a very different midrange tone than the upper end of a driver... cleaner, smoother and very present in that 'upper mid problem area' for some tone goals.... 1K-2K).... which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the tone you are going for.

Also, +1 on that tweeter, which is stupid high SPL. If found the best balance with the attenuator almost all the way off... just adds a nice little bit of sparkle.

If gank isn't a technical term, then it should be. That's a great description of the issue. As my boss would say, it's a good 'word picture.'

I'm running my mid almost wide open, about 80%. It was a bit hard to judge where to set it until the woofer broke in, but I think I like it there. The GB is pretty mid-heavy by itself, so the combination really cuts through well.

 

[KJung]

If gank isn't a technical term, then it should be. That's a great description of the issue. As my boss would say, it's a good 'word picture.'

I'm running my mid almost wide open, about 80%. It was a bit hard to judge where to set it until the woofer broke in, but I think I like it there. The GB is pretty mid-heavy by itself, so the combination really cuts through well.

+1 I know the EE guys scoff at the more traditional 2 way cabs (woofer and tweeter), since there is almost always a little bit of a hole between the very top end of the drivers and when most tweeters kick in. However, this is not necessarily a design flaw, and for many tone goals, having a cab naturally dip in that 'gank' area (1-2K or whatever) actually is a good thing for bass guitar amplification.

That is also why all the talk of comb filtering and beaming is kind of a none issue for many of us using bass guitar backline, since that issue really only happens at the very narrow range of the upper mids prior to the tweeter kicking in... and typically, those freq's are somewhat unpleasant in bass guitar amplification (at least for some tone goals).

However, a high mid EQ cut does wonders!

 

[guy n. cognito]

+1 I know the EE guys scoff at the more traditional 2 way cabs (woofer and tweeter), since there is almost always a little bit of a hole between the very top end of the drivers and when most tweeters kick in. However, this is not necessarily a design flaw, and for many tone goals, having a cab naturally dip in that 'gank' area (1-2K or whatever) actually is a good thing for bass guitar amplification.

That is also why all the talk of comb filtering and beaming is kind of a none issue for many of us using bass guitar backline, since that issue really only happens at the very narrow range of the upper mids prior to the tweeter kicking in... and typically, those freq's are somewhat unpleasant in bass guitar amplification (at least for some tone goals).

However, a high mid EQ cut does wonders!

Funny you mention that. When I A/B my LDS 15/6 to my Bag End stack, there is a very obvious sonic "hole" in the upper mids in the BEs.

 

[lbwdog]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, Greenboy (& others) have stated that a continuously variable L-pad (woofer/mid) isn't desirable as it will affect impedances or something, but a pad with selectable attenuation steps (ie;-3db, -6db, -9db) would be an acceptable way to pad the output of the mid-range driver.

IMHO, this would be a better solution than to try and hit the frequencies with the amp's tone control.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, Greenboy (& others) have stated that a continuously variable L-pad (woofer/mid) isn't desirable as it will affect impedances or something, but a pad with selectable attenuation steps (ie;-3db, -6db, -9db) would be an acceptable way to pad the output of the mid-range driver.

IMHO, this would be a better solution than to try and hit the frequencies with the amp's tone control.

Here's greenboy's thoughts on the subject. I think he's a real fan.....




http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Mid_padding

 

[KJung]

Funny you mention that. When I A/B my LDS 15/6 to my Bag End stack, there is a very obvious sonic "hole" in the upper mids in the BEs.

+1 That will be true IMO with almost any two way cab, and the Bag End 'x' speakers, to my ears, have that tweeter crossed over quite high... which gives them that unique combination of fat and punchy but with a very pure, sizzly upper treble response, and absolutely no gank...ever! I like them.

 

[KJung]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, Greenboy (& others) have stated that a continuously variable L-pad (woofer/mid) isn't desirable as it will affect impedances or something, but a pad with selectable attenuation steps (ie;-3db, -6db, -9db) would be an acceptable way to pad the output of the mid-range driver.

IMHO, this would be a better solution than to try and hit the frequencies with the amp's tone control.

Just so you have some type of control over the balance, it is all good. However, you will still need a pretty good upper mid EQ with these designs IMO, because there are a lot of frequencies (700 or 800hz on up) covered with that mid driver. You might not want to reduce all those freq's the same. So, the L-Pad or switch or whatever is great for balancing the overall upper mids to your preference, while that upper mid control on the amp would be to specifically reduce some part of that mid response (especially with that 18Sound mid driver, to my ear).

Don has been using heavy duty L-Pads with these designs for years and years (he's been doing mid drivers since way back when... he's a big fan) with absolutely no problems that I know of.

 

[lbwdog]

Here's greenboy's thoughts on the subject. I think he's a real fan.....




http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Mid_padding

Um Hm, I'm well aware of his thoughts on a continuously variable l-pad but somewhere along the line, I could swear he gave his blessing to a fixed, but selectable pad. He has always stated that the 18Sound 6.5 driver needs at least a 3db pad to match sensitivity to the 3015LF.

I dunno, i may be talking to him later today, and will ask.

 

[lbwdog]

So, the L-Pad or switch or whatever is great for balancing the overall upper mids to your preference, while that upper mid control on the amp would be to specifically reduce some part of that mid response (especially with that 18Sound mid driver, to my ear).

Right, I'm just trying to think ahead, as I'm not sure if I'm keeping the LMTube 800 or going with a G-K MB500. I guess I'll need to compare the Hi Mid EQ points on both amps to see which frequencies are affected.
OTOH, I may be putting way too much thought in this, considering my old, burnt-out ears!

 

[KJung]

Right, I'm just trying to think ahead, as I'm not sure if I'm keeping the LMTube 800 or going with a G-K MB500. I guess I'll need to compare the Hi Mid EQ points on both amps to see which frequencies are affected.
OTOH, I may be putting way too much thought in this, considering my old, burnt-out ears!

Both the Markbass heads and the TecAmp heads have the upper mids set at relatively narrow Q at 800hz. That is just perfect for this application. Not sure about the GK.

Also, for the LDS cabs with the custom Ralf Patterson crossover, Ralf sets the L-Pad so that it is -3db at the noon setting for the mid driver.

 

[silky smoove]

Played a 4 hour gig with one of my LDS 15/6/1's last night. This time it was a large room, with PA support, on a metal framework stage (those that have played on rented stages know what I mean with this). To make matters worse, the room was roughly square, and the band and the PA were firing directly into a wall that was almost completely glass. All in all the room was incredibly boomy.

As I had done the night before, I was running the 15/6/1 off of a Carvin DCM2000L being driven by a Tech21 VT Bass. I used my Warmoth/Status dual Darkstar G4 for the entire gig.

The good:
Once again, I had ample stage volume. Unlike the gig the night before, I was not required to drive the room with my stage volume, and I sent a DI to the PA using a Radial JDI. My 15/6/1 was purely a monitor for me and the drummer. Plenty of lows with very balanced sounding mids and highs. The more I play this cab, the more I'm getting used to dialing in the midrange and tweeter. The winning combination thus far has been with the midrange around 25-40% percent open, and the tweeter down around 5-10% open. At this point, the tweeter is just there to add a touch of sparkle, while the midrange does all of the heavy lifting for the upper mid end of the spectrum. I'm still blown away by how much sound comes off that 6ND410.

The bad:
After two gigs and some rather extensive testing this morning, I'm not too sure about the 15/6/1 and VT Bass pairing. The VT Bass sounded incredible through my Schroeder 15+L's, but I'm not digging it as much as I had hoped I would through the 15/6/1. The voicing of the 15/6/1's really wants a widely voiced amp, and the VT Bass just isn't producing that. The VT Bass through tightly voiced cabs like the Schroeder 15+L or Bergantino AE410 (and I imagine the entire NV line) absolutely kills, but it's just not doing it for me with this pairing. On top of that, my recently acquired Carvin DCM2000L is... ugh... It's just not a good power amp I'm sorry to say. The only way I can keep it from being noisy is by turning the mid and tweeter off completely. I tried this with my Markbass LMTube, my guitar players Pignose (some 100 watt all-tube bass head), as well as one of his Marshall JCM800's, and his Soldano Decatone... That was a fun demo, haha... and the only time I had noise issues, was with the Carvin providing power. That one's getting shipped back to Carvin tomorrow. I might have just gotten a lemon, because in all other aspects it performs very well.

The ugly:
After using this amp in a situation where I have to carry the room and one where I don't, I've come to realize that I've purchased roughly 100% too much cab. I seem to remember some people here on TB telling me that when I was ordering them... hmmm... My stepdad is looking for a new cab and I'm going to see if he'll buy one of these from me. If not, there will likely be one of these popping up in the classifieds before too long. The other thing I've realized is that my amp setup is just not going to work with this. Plugging in my LMTube sounds WAY better than than the DCM/VT setup. As such, I think I'm going to try and get my hands on a Tecamp Puma 1000. I've heard great reports from Ken (Kjung) and Don (LDS) about the pairing of a Puma and the 15/6 cabs. Plus the Puma1000 seems like it was designed specifically for this type of application given it's high power rating into an 8 ohm minimum load (bridged). Oh well, it's only money.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

There are a lot of people who like the VT Bass. I had one but sold it because the tone it produced seemed too muddy. I'm not a SVT fan so there is bias with that perception. But the 15/6 pairing is probably not good anyway because the 15/6 produces a lower fundamental than traditional cabs. The combination is sure to be overkill on the lowest end of the sound spectrum. I'm using my 15/6 and 12/6 cabs with a Genz Benz ShuttleMAX12 as a preamp and a QSC PLX 3602 power amp. Works like a dream. I'm using the 12/6 way more than I thought since it's lighter and eq's to the same tone as the 15/6 - plus volume is adequate for all small and most mid-sized venues. 15/6 x 2 is overkill, especially in large venues where PA support is usually guaranteed.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Discounting the noise from the Carvin for the moment, try a UA LA-610 preamp into the power amp; I recently sold my VT when I got the UA. Not that there was anything wrong with the VT, quite the opposite really, as the tone with it on some recent band recordings, was fantastic. , I was just gassing for the LA-610 for a long time.

Listen Link Removed to the recordings.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

Sorry the Carvin DCM2000L is not up to par for you. I'm using a peavey DPC 1000 and I dont hear alot of hiss. However, I do sculpt my tone to cut out alot upper mids and sparkle. I do like the VT Bass and 15/6 combination... but I also use external eq. I think that may be part of your issue. The VT Bass is just too limited to dial in rooms properly. Bass eq set at 125hz, no lo-mids etc... not great. I use an external boss geb7 or ART 341 15 band and that helps alot. But I know what you mean as this cab is capable producing some beautiful DEEP low-end and the VT Bass seems more about upper bass. So the VT Bass is not the best match to the 15/6 without an external eq. I like nudging up some 60hz and cutting 25 & 40hz slightly which gives me a tight punchy tone while still retaining "bass".

And yes two 15/6 cabs really is overkill IMO. Using that much on stage probably would mess up the stage mix... better to use PA. ...... Unless you are in some Doom/metal outfit that plays at earbleedling levels in drop Z tuning.

 

[silky smoove]

No drop Z tuning for me... We've taken a more sensible approach and are now only tuning down to drop R

Just got off the phone with my mom. She's buying one of these cabs from me for my stepdad's birthday as he needs a new cab to use in a blues, soul, classic rock band he's in. That was an easy way to recoup costs!

Carvin's going back tomorrow and I'm probably going to buy a Tecamp Puma1000. I've been wanting a Tecamp for a while now, and this seems like the perfect catalyst to make it happen. I'm still going to keep the VT on my board, but it'll be used as an overdrive/dirt pedal rather than a preamp.

 

[rpsands]

Your carvin is probably a lemon. I use a 1540L and it's quieter than any power amp I have owned (and that is saying a lot, I've owned a bunch!). Send it back and get a better model.

On the other hand: All the stuff from Tech21 I have used has been noisier than conventional stuff.

Also: The VT bass does a lot of speaker emulation (cuts off the signal above and below certain points and similar), so I would not pick it as the ultimate pre for this rig. It limits you a lot.

Buy yourself a BBE 383 or Yamaha PB-1. They're cheap and rock the house with this setup. Then keep that forever and you can save money for another pre. The Demeter HBP-1 is an incremental improvement over the Yamaha in my opinion, so you may want to look at that.

 

[Kitsapbass]

I concur with rpsands re:yamaha preamp; I have one and it is great for the money...if you can find one!

 

[guy n. cognito]

Played a 4 hour gig with one of my LDS 15/6/1's last night. This time it was a large room, with PA support, on a metal framework stage (those that have played on rented stages know what I mean with this). To make matters worse, the room was roughly square, and the band and the PA were firing directly into a wall that was almost completely glass. All in all the room was incredibly boomy.

As I had done the night before, I was running the 15/6/1 off of a Carvin DCM2000L being driven by a Tech21 VT Bass. I used my Warmoth/Status dual Darkstar G4 for the entire gig.

The good:
Once again, I had ample stage volume. Unlike the gig the night before, I was not required to drive the room with my stage volume, and I sent a DI to the PA using a Radial JDI. My 15/6/1 was purely a monitor for me and the drummer. Plenty of lows with very balanced sounding mids and highs. The more I play this cab, the more I'm getting used to dialing in the midrange and tweeter. The winning combination thus far has been with the midrange around 25-40% percent open, and the tweeter down around 5-10% open. At this point, the tweeter is just there to add a touch of sparkle, while the midrange does all of the heavy lifting for the upper mid end of the spectrum. I'm still blown away by how much sound comes off that 6ND410.

The bad:
After two gigs and some rather extensive testing this morning, I'm not too sure about the 15/6/1 and VT Bass pairing. The VT Bass sounded incredible through my Schroeder 15+L's, but I'm not digging it as much as I had hoped I would through the 15/6/1. The voicing of the 15/6/1's really wants a widely voiced amp, and the VT Bass just isn't producing that. The VT Bass through tightly voiced cabs like the Schroeder 15+L or Bergantino AE410 (and I imagine the entire NV line) absolutely kills, but it's just not doing it for me with this pairing. On top of that, my recently acquired Carvin DCM2000L is... ugh... It's just not a good power amp I'm sorry to say. The only way I can keep it from being noisy is by turning the mid and tweeter off completely. I tried this with my Markbass LMTube, my guitar players Pignose (some 100 watt all-tube bass head), as well as one of his Marshall JCM800's, and his Soldano Decatone... That was a fun demo, haha... and the only time I had noise issues, was with the Carvin providing power. That one's getting shipped back to Carvin tomorrow. I might have just gotten a lemon, because in all other aspects it performs very well.

The ugly:
After using this amp in a situation where I have to carry the room and one where I don't, I've come to realize that I've purchased roughly 100% too much cab. I seem to remember some people here on TB telling me that when I was ordering them... hmmm... My stepdad is looking for a new cab and I'm going to see if he'll buy one of these from me. If not, there will likely be one of these popping up in the classifieds before too long. The other thing I've realized is that my amp setup is just not going to work with this. Plugging in my LMTube sounds WAY better than than the DCM/VT setup. As such, I think I'm going to try and get my hands on a Tecamp Puma 1000. I've heard great reports from Ken (Kjung) and Don (LDS) about the pairing of a Puma and the 15/6 cabs. Plus the Puma1000 seems like it was designed specifically for this type of application given it's high power rating into an 8 ohm minimum load (bridged). Oh well, it's only money.

Hey, Silky, just for reference, I got virtually zero hiss from my GB ShuttleMax 6.0. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the Puma.

 

[Bluesy Soul]

Thanks for the good review and follow-up, Silky. I"m anxiously awaiting receipt of my fEarful-based 15/6 from Don in the next several days.

Based on the comments of several who preceded me, I ordered only one 15/6 instead of two. I decided to wait to see how much volume a 15/6 provided and then consider adding a 12/6 (instead of another 15/6) to provide both larger and smaller size & volume options. Your comments have reinforced that decision.

Does anyone have experience with a fEarful-based 15/6 and the Genz-Benz Shuttle 9.0?

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

No drop Z tuning for me... We've taken a more sensible approach and are now only tuning down to drop R

Just got off the phone with my mom. She's buying one of these cabs from me for my stepdad's birthday as he needs a new cab to use in a blues, soul, classic rock band he's in. That was an easy way to recoup costs!

Carvin's going back tomorrow and I'm probably going to buy a Tecamp Puma1000. I've been wanting a Tecamp for a while now, and this seems like the perfect catalyst to make it happen. I'm still going to keep the VT on my board, but it'll be used as an overdrive/dirt pedal rather than a preamp.

Man, a Puma 1000 would be really nice. Thats the dream amp I'll never lay the money out for.