Mac or PC?

[kaputsport]

THEIR hardware? Hilarious.

ATI video cards are their hardware? Intel chipsets, reference motherboard designs, and CPUs are their hardware?

Good gravy.

Apple didn't create an OS to run on their hardware. They OPTIMIZED their OS to work with a limited set of aftermarket hardware. Hardware that by and large is available to anyone with the cash.

What I was implying was they designed the software to run on the hardware they chose to build their computers with. But you knew that and now you are just nitpicking with words...



No, it is neutering it to protect the financial interests of the company.

There is no technical reason for not allowing it to run on any functional hardware - but Apple puts in stops to prevent it.

There is a technical reason. Apple does not want to focus on building drivers for every tom, dick and harry video card, modem, mouse, motherboard and processor setup. They want to concern themselves with their hardware, their software and their business, which if I remember correctly, has surpassed Microsoft in the last year... Seems they know something we don't.


Adoption is what will make or break the Intel Thunderbolt port.

Agreed. Right now there are already a few things out, and more coming. Time will tell.

Yes... I'm very uninformed.

I wonder just how many parts of the processor on your Mac I had a hand in during my years as a VLSI design engineer at Intel?

Not sure. Did you work on the Intel Core2Duo?


Autocad? They're finally back on Mac after 18 years not supporting it.

Solidworks is FINALLY on the Mac as of last year.

Orcad? LTSpice? Altium Designer? PADS? Synopsys? Xilinx ISE? Altera Quartus II?

There is SOME CAD/Design software for Mac. There is significantly more for PC and *nix.

I agree that the market is very heavy on the PC side of things like this, but to make a blank statement saying it is not possible is untrue. Any one had the capability to run these on windows/parallels on their mac for years. It may be a technicality, but it was and is possible.



I was reading "pro" as "professional", not "production".

Logic, Final Cut Studio and other Apple pro apps are what I consider professional apps, in the sense that many professionals use them, and it was what the mac was founded upon.

Try to run Snow Leopard on your Mac with a PowerPC, or Leopard on a G3, or...

This is the ONE argument you can make, when they made a controversial change to intel chips. After that, ANY intel mac has been able to upgrade to 10.7 with one exception... The intel core duo processor mac minis and macbook pros. These machines are over 6 years old at this point, and many would have upgraded already, however they are still running 10.6 fine, and work like they did when new. And can be sold on eBay or Craigslist for more than your $300 example later in your post (The Macbook Pro that is).


It's easy to cut folks a deal when you know you'll pull your profit on the hardware. You have to look at total cost of ownership.

I have. I paid $1800 for my iMac 6 years ago. I have spent $300 on studio monitors, $100 on ram, replaced two keyboards (one was a soda spill by a 25 year old, the other my at the time 2 year old) and bought a mouse. Software was updated every update.

Total spent? Around $1000 over 6 years. Only half of that was purchasing the OS and I believe it was less than that. I have headphones, other iPhone hardware, routers, etc I purchased and as of now, my total spent is around $2800... In 6 years.

Really?

I've got a Windows 7 laptop at home. Comparable hardware wise to a middle of the line Macbook Pro on hardware when it was new. Came with a printer. Came with MS Office. Every other piece of software on it was free and is usable.

It cost $600.





Comparable PC:

Dell XPS17 - with Office, Windows 7 Ultimate, a 17" display, anti-virus software, and a faster hard drive:

$1502.

Wireless router with print server: $45

Funny, I got a different price when paying attention to details...



XPS 17

Market Value1 $2,082.99
Total Savings $404.00

Dell Price $1,678.99



+ Tech Specs

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Discount Details

Preliminary Ship Date: 8/8/2011

My Selections All Options
XPS 17




Date 7/27/2011 11:43:02 AM Central Standard Time

Catalog Number 29 Retail 19


Catalog Number / Description Product Code Qty SKU Id



XPS 17:
XPS 17 SMX17HN 1 [225-0587] 1


Processor:
2nd generation Intel® Core™ i7-2620M processor 2.70 GHz with Turbo Boost 2.0 up to 3.40 GHz I72620M 1 [317-6216] 2


Operating System:
Genuine Windows® 7 Ultimate, 64-Bit, English W71U6E 1 [318-0392][330-6222][331-1416][420-6436][420-6576][420-9691][420-9876][421-0092][421-0757][421-2086][421-4118][421-4289][421-4586][421-5825] 11


Office Productivity Software (Pre-Installed):
Microsoft® Office Home and Business 2010 IHB 1 [410-0493] 22


Hardware Support Services:
1 Year In-Home Service after Remote Diagnosis T1O 1 [420-8878][933-0410][939-4150][939-4160][950-3337][950-9797] 29


Video Card:
NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 555M 3GB graphics with Optimus 555MUS 1 [320-1980][320-1987] 6


Memory:
8GB Shared Dual Channel DDR3 Memory 8G2D133 1 [317-6204] 3


Battery:
90 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery 9BAT 1 [312-1182] 27


Hard Drive:
750GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive 750GB72 1 [342-2250] 8


Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed):
McAfee SecurityCenter, 24-Months MCEM24M 1 [410-0574] 25


LCD:
17.3" HD+ (900p) LED Display with 2.0MP HD Webcam 900HD 1 [318-0189][421-3642][421-3874] 5


CD ROM/DVD ROM:
Tray Load Blu-ray Disc BD-Combo (Reads BD and Writes to DVD/CD) BDCMB 1 [318-0151][318-0434][421-4550] 16


Wireless Plus Bluetooth:
Intel® Centrino® Wireless-N 1000 IN1000 1 [430-4034] 19


Sound:
JBL 2.1 Speakers with Waves Maxx Audio 3 JBLSND 1 [318-0138] 17


Color:
Elemental Silver Aluminum ALUMLAN 1 [318-0428] 10


Keyboard:
Standard Keyboard - English STKYBDE 1 [331-1415] 4


Mobile Broadband:
No Mobile Broad Band Selected NOMBB 1 [430-3893] 114


Integrated Network Adapter:
Integrated 10/100/1000 Network Card INTNIC 1 [430-4038] 13


Adobe Reader:
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader ADOBER 1 [410-0548] 15


Data Safe:
DataSafe 2.0 Online Backup 2GB for 1 year DSO2G 1 [421-4356][927-2357][988-0099] 34



Software... that is a different question. I'd rather use Soundforge than GarageBand, and I'd rather use Audacity than Soundforge.

I would rather use anything but the two you listed, but that is opinion, and experience talking in the audio world. Same can be said for FCP over Vegas, or other professional editing software out there.

...and it isn't like the iLife stuff is really comparable to professional quality software. It sure ain't Photoshop.

Garageband is a direct ported version of logic. If you think it is useless, you need to get away from the computer and go play outside. It is extremely powerful for what it was designed to do.

If you're going that direction - Windows comes with basic video editing and picture editing that is closer to the iLife stuff than the iLife stuff is to things like Photoshop/Premiere/etc.

We will agree to disagree here.

See bold.

 

[Turock]

You are 100% correct. It's inevitable whenever this situation comes up that a bunch of IT people are going to start berating everyone that they have to use a computer the EXACT SAME WAY THAT THEY DO, and therefore shouldn't use a Mac. Meanwhile, they ironically accuse Mac users of being the ones trying to push their consumer choices on everyone else.

All I have always said is that Macs are a great choice for a lot of people. They are not for everyone.

Yeah, that's all you ever said.
Check out this thread and see who actually berates, gets offended, and strikes out at others. Duh, it's you.

 

[kaputsport]

I didn't take it personally per se, however I'm one of the few people in this thread prior to your post to specifically say I priced something out and to quote the total prices for each. So it was reasonable to infer that your words applied at least in part to my post. Also, indiscriminately calling arguments that a Mac is overpriced BS isn't too helpful to the discussion.

I am sorry you took it that way. It was more dissected to those talking about "out of date hardware".

And that's cool. I wouldn't draw broad conclusions from my comparison and haven't denigrated yours to this point. However, it could be argued that you've stacked the deck in Apple's favor on a couple fronts.

And it will, because Apple stacked the deck. I used to be a PC guy. I would build custom boxes for myself, maxing out the capabilities of all the parts in my PC. I would wait in line for OS's, and parts, and order them online. I sold my last PC for $400 6 years ago, and bought an iMac to use FCP for a project... And never looked back. I even stopped al the gaming I did, and moved it to a console, and I am better for it.

Based on my own experience, this last paragraph looks like an exaggeration. It seems to assume that PC horror stories are the norm, not the first time that's happened in this thread. I don't argue that PCs are better, I simply don't have the experience with Macs to say that. But the case against PCs seems overstated to me.

I thought virus infections, trojen horses, spyware, browser hacks and other issues were part of life. I had a time set aside in the middle of the week to run all scans and perform all maintenance... Now my computer does it for me, without my knowledge. I have never had a kernel panic in 6 years. With my other computers, they would get a BSOD at least once a year. Same for my old corporate computers. We had plenty of issues, and in my experience, the mac was more stable.

I will say that any PC that is never connected to the internet, and is designed specifically for a purpose, are in fact very healthy workers, and honestly, some are just as good as the Apple counterpart, but again... Never connected to the internet? That is a purpose built machine...

See bold.

 

[aborgman]

Then point out THOSE flaws. The fact is that the flaws you pointed out were exclusive to machines built as far back as the 80s. The fact that you would rather engage in sophistry over your ridiculous examples instead of just providing some current ones is evidence that you just plain do not know what you are talking about, and your vitriol and hatred of Apple is significantly more important to you than the facts.

Yes... my lack of experience (supporting hundreds of Macs for years on end, up until about a year ago) and my vitriol and hatred of Apple (which is why I own/have owned several Apple products) matter more than the facts.

Your personal experience is not proof of larger trends.

No, but my personal experience supporting dozens of machines - combined with my wife's experience supporting hundreds of machines (including iPads and iPhones as well as OSX based systems), and my discussion with our very own Apple Authorized repair provider - is.

The fact is that when a major part of a laptop goes for any brand, most people replace the entire laptop. People are not replacing laptop motherboards en masse. Get a grip.

That just isn't true if you're looking at corporate or educational IT servicing.

Furthermore, you are surprised that it costs less to replace a crappy cheap screen than a high quality Macbook Pro screen? Really? That's your point?

Guess what? My BMW parts cost more to replace than my Honda Civic part! THE BMW IS A RIP OFF!

It quite likely is... have you looked at how horrible the reliability record is for BMW lately?

That's the logic you are using right now. Sure, I can replace some absolute piece of trash Dell laptop keyboard for cheap... because it's cheap keyboard. The important question is not whether it costs more in general. The important question is whether a high quality PC laptop has cheap to replace parts, and it DOESN'T, so the idea that a Macbook Pro should be able to meet the price replacement parts of a $600 laptop is a joke.

Considering that it provides no more functionality or reliability in its hardware - why is it a joke? This idea that Apple hardware is way better than everyone else just isn't supported by facts.

 

[kaputsport]

It quite likely is... have you looked at how horrible the reliability record is for BMW lately?

I actually own a BMW, and I have great luck with it...

Considering that it provides no more functionality or reliability in its hardware - why is it a joke? This idea that Apple hardware is way better than everyone else just isn't supported by facts.

I actually agree with this, in terms of saying that Apple hardware is better. The case, and look are better, but the actual working parts are the same as other machines, and in no way is "better"

See Bold.

 

[L-A]

Yeah, that's all you ever said.
Check out this thread and see who actually berates, gets offended, and strikes out at others. Duh, it's you.

At this point, I call troll.

 

[Turock]

At this point, I call troll.

Get real, troll caller.

 

[aborgman]

What I was implying was they designed the software to run on the hardware they chose to build their computers with.

Actually that isn't even really true.

They choose the hardware to build their computers with based on what has tested well with their other hardware and software. It's a big part of their stability advantage, and a big part of their performance disadvantage.

There is a technical reason. Apple does not want to focus on building drivers for every tom, dick and harry video card, modem, mouse, motherboard and processor setup.

They don't need to. Hardware vendors do that. In fact - that is where Apple really gets their drivers now.

They want to concern themselves with their hardware, their software and their business, which if I remember correctly, has surpassed Microsoft in the last year... Seems they know something we don't.

There is no doubt Apple knows how to make money. Selling better and technical superiority are two different things though.

Still only half way to catching up to Microsoft though.

Apple Gross Profit 2010: $25,684,000,000
Microsoft Gross Profit 2010: $50,089,000,000

Not sure. Did you work on the Intel Core2Duo?

I worked on several parts that ended up (with modifications) in the Core2Duo. A lot of work in the re-order buffer.

This is the ONE argument you can make, when they made a controversial change to intel chips.

Ummm... nope.

10.2 doesn't support "beige" PPC G3s

10.3 doesn't support any PPC that predate the introduction of integrated Firewire ports.

10.5 doesn't support and PPC G3s and doesn't support any PPC G4s with clock speed below 867 MHz.

10.6 and above don't support any non x86 processors.

I have. I paid $1800 for my iMac 6 years ago. I have spent $300 on studio monitors, $100 on ram, replaced two keyboards (one was a soda spill by a 25 year old, the other my at the time 2 year old) and bought a mouse. Software was updated every update.

Total spent? Around $1000 over 6 years. Only half of that was purchasing the OS and I believe it was less than that. I have headphones, other iPhone hardware, routers, etc I purchased and as of now, my total spent is around $2800... In 6 years.

I'm currently using two machines at home:

1) 12 year old P4 desktop. Total cost (including OS, software, and all replacement hardware over that 12 years): $700

2) 4 year old Dell laptop: Total cost (including OS, software, and all replacement hardware over that 4 years): $600

Funny, I got a different price when paying attention to details...

Sure - because you forgot to downgrade it to match the specs on the Macbook. To really match you need a slower and smaller HD, a weaker video card, a much smaller display, an optical drive that doesn't do bluray, and the lower lifespan battery.

Some of those you can downgrade to lower the price, others you can't.

Garageband is a direct ported version of logic. If you think it is useless, you need to get away from the computer and go play outside. It is extremely powerful for what it was designed to do.

It isn't useless. It just isn't all that great.

For an inexperienced user, who wants to do really simple things, and doesn't require a lot of good bells and whistles - it's ok.

We will agree to disagree here.

Do you really believe that the iLife stuff is on par with something like Adobe Premiere? They ain't even the same sport, much less that same ballpark.

 

[aborgman]

I actually own a BMW, and I have great luck with it...

Yeah, and lots of other people don't.

That is why the plural of anecdote isn't data.

If we look at actual reliability data, BMW ain't that hot - especially given their price.

Link Removed

I actually agree with this, in terms of saying that Apple hardware is better. The case, and look are better, but the actual working parts are the same as other machines, and in no way is "better"

Yep - you're paying for subjective look and feel.

 

[BassyBill]

Interesting car reliability data. Several Japanese companies (and Ford) doing well, some of the German manufacturers markedly less so. Just shows how people's perceptions of what is better/higher quality can be based on straw. Thanks for sharing that.

Okay, carry on...

 

[Ziltoid]

 

[Relic]

^lol

 

[aborgman]

Interesting car reliability data. Several Japanese companies (and Ford) doing well, some of the German manufacturers markedly less so. Just shows how people's perceptions of what is better/higher quality can be based on straw. Thanks for sharing that.

Okay, carry on...

European car manufacturers (specifically German) have a really poor reliability history going back several years.

Doesn't mean they aren't nice cars - just not the most reliable.

 

[Relic]

European car manufacturers (specifically German) have a really poor reliability history going back several years.

Doesn't mean they aren't nice cars - just not the most reliable.

yeah my wife has owned nothing but Volkswagen for the past 12 years. Her previous car was excellent but her later car and the one she has now, has been nothing but awful.
The first was made in Germany the second I think was made in Mexico. Though, that really should not matter as I believe that the country of "assembly" (ie made in...)really only refers to the final assembly. I'm sure that bits and pieces were made all over the place.

 

[GregC]

See bold.

No worries, these misunderstandings happen.

Our experiences with PCs obviously differ greatly, and that's OK.

 

[kaputsport]

Do you really believe that the iLife stuff is on par with something like Adobe Premiere? They ain't even the same sport, much less that same ballpark.

I have never said once in this thread that iLife is in any direct comparison to Adobe suites, but the point is moot. Adobe is available across all platforms, so there is no gain with either computer group.

Fact is, there are two camps of people, and each one will use what they use. I feel that a macbook pro with a SSD would be a great investment for a college student. She will be able to use both OSX and Windows, have little issues with software bugs, and to top it all off, have a great machine to use for years.

She could get away with a PC, and many people do. If she is able to maintain the machine, she will be good.

I don't consider myself an expert in the field, and further more, I am an avid user of Logic Pro 9 and Final Cut Pro (Now Final Cut Studio X). I use two machines to do the work:

24" iMac 2.16 C2D with 3GB ram for video (needs updated)
20" iMac 2.4 GHz C2D with 4 GB ram in our studio

Both still perform well, but the 24" is showing it's age. It is 6 years old, and it is the longest I have ever owned a computer with no repair, upgrades, or needed support. Period. I am on the same install of the OS, adding the new releases when they come out. I run Onyx once a month, and keep the drives clean, and almost never restart.

If that is not enough of a selling point for someone looking for reliability, and great design, I don't know what would be. Sure, IT guys, and other professionals in different areas will all argue that they can do so much more, better and faster with their "Insert PC here". Fact is, I am more productive with my Mac than I would ever be with a PC.

 

[kaputsport]

Yeah, and lots of other people don't.

That is why the plural of anecdote isn't data.

If we look at actual reliability data, BMW ain't that hot - especially given their price.

Link Removed

My wife has an Audi as well. Brother has VW. Mine is a 2002 M3. The car is rock solid, and very fun. I guess I paid for the look, subjective feel and the higher quality are parts to accomplish the same thing as a Toyota...

And at the end of the day, I would rather be in a BMW with some problems than a working Toyota.

 

[Eric Perry]

Yeah, that's all you ever said.
Check out this thread and see who actually berates, gets offended, and strikes out at others. Duh, it's you.

No. From what I read, you are the one met the above criteria here.

 

[BassyBill]

Watch it, sonny Jim.

 

[Ziltoid]

Watch it, sonny Jim.

Is that some strange British saying for: I'm about to ban your butt?