Mac or PC?

[L-A]

Certain qualifications allow one to speak knowledgeably and objectively on a subject. It appears that you can do neither.

Your arguments up to now are incredibly outdated, and your need to back them up with vague credentials doesn't help.

You describe yourself as a Mac owner (two of them, whoa!), while many contributors in this thread are Mac users. I'll take their advice first, as I have no idea how certifications and ownership make you a specialist in using a Mac.

 

[aborgman]

Apple created an OS to run ONLY on their hardware.

THEIR hardware? Hilarious.

ATI video cards are their hardware? Intel chipsets, reference motherboard designs, and CPUs are their hardware?

Good gravy.

Apple didn't create an OS to run on their hardware. They OPTIMIZED their OS to work with a limited set of aftermarket hardware. Hardware that by and large is available to anyone with the cash.

It is not neutering it, it is protecting the interests of the company.

No, it is neutering it to protect the financial interests of the company.

There is no technical reason for not allowing it to run on any functional hardware - but Apple puts in stops to prevent it.

Unlike Microsoft, they found a way to create a product to sell, which you can only get through them, and be successful. Sorry if you feel it is neutering, I think it is brilliant.

I think it's both.

I think it's a big part of why their consumer base loves them, and also a big part of why they only command a tiny percentage of the market.

Very useful if you are using the products designed for it.

Sure - like Firewire... but if it never becomes a standard, the number of things designed for it will be minimal.

Adoption is what will make or break the Intel Thunderbolt port.

As for Firewire, I have already touched on it. I use Firewire exclusively for data transfer to disk and audio integration with the interface for recording. I find it is much more reliable, and faster. Again, to each their own.

I like Firewire - but it is, and always has been, a niche market with a relatively limited number of devices... and that is even considering the push by Sony of iLink.

I love it when the masses are uninformed.

Yes... I'm very uninformed.

I wonder just how many parts of the processor on your Mac I had a hand in during my years as a VLSI design engineer at Intel?

CAD is supported on OSX, and has been for quite some time.

Some is, some isn't.

How do I know this? My father is a professional engineer, and uses many forms of CAD software on a Mac.

I'm a professional engineer.

Solidworks, Pro-E and many others... But you knew that right?

Autocad? They're finally back on Mac after 18 years not supporting it.

Solidworks is FINALLY on the Mac as of last year.

Orcad? LTSpice? Altium Designer? PADS? Synopsys? Xilinx ISE? Altera Quartus II?

There is SOME CAD/Design software for Mac. There is significantly more for PC and *nix.

As for the pro apps, I was referring to FCP, Logic, Aperture and the other pro grade applications Apple designs. All link well together, and allow you to complete the project in all forms, with no software incompatibility. Using Motion, FCP and Logic, you can create awesome videos, DVDs and artwork all with little to no issues (pending format issues with original art/sound/video)

I was reading "pro" as "professional", not "production".

Last thing I want to say. I find that the purchase of an Apple computer will allow you to use that same hardware for many years, and many generations of OS, and never miss a beat.

Try to run Snow Leopard on your Mac with a PowerPC, or Leopard on a G3, or...

With a PC, every time a new OS is released, an upgrade to your hardware has to be done (with in reason).

Not even close.

I've got a 12 year old P4 with 1GB of RAM running Windows 7.

Add to that, software choices are easier, and cheaper.

OSX 10.7 Lion: $29
Windows 7:
-Premium $119.99
-Professional $199.99
-Ultimate $219.99

Now, these are bare prices for NEW installs, legal software from the manufacturer. Sure, Newegg and many other sites will have discounted rates, but not Ultimate for $29, like Apple does.

It's easy to cut folks a deal when you know you'll pull your profit on the hardware. You have to look at total cost of ownership.

Also, the argument regarding pricing out a new PC vs Mac and saying the Mac is over priced are BS. If you take a person with no computer or software and go shopping, you will spend more on the PC, even for the basics. I have done it with laptops, and desktops... Store bought and home built.

Really?

I've got a Windows 7 laptop at home. Comparable hardware wise to a middle of the line Macbook Pro on hardware when it was new. Came with a printer. Came with MS Office. Every other piece of software on it was free and is usable.

It cost $600.

Here is the Macbook Pro, priced at $1499... Bone Stock.
OSX 10.7, with iLife

2.7GHz Dual-core Intel Core i7
4GB 1333MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x2GB
500GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard (English) & User's Guide

Add iWork for $79
Add and Airport Extreme Base station with AirPrint for $179
Printer is free for students most times...

Total: $1,757

Comparable PC:

Priced at $939, adding Office brings us to...

$1,149.98

Add a 500GB harddrive to match specs... Average price is $100
Wireless router with print server: $134.99 (on sale)
Video Editing software: Sony Vegas Platinum HD $99
Audio recording software: Sony Sound Forge 10 $61.99 (On Sale)
Picture Editing Software: Adobe PS and Elements: $129.99

Total: $1,675.95

So the PC is cheaper... By $81.05...

Oh, I forgot Anti-Virus software, Anti Spyware software and a software firewall...

I rest my case.

Comparable PC:

Dell XPS17 - with Office, Windows 7 Ultimate, a 17" display, anti-virus software, and a faster hard drive:

$1502.

Wireless router with print server: $45

Software... that is a different question. I'd rather use Soundforge than GarageBand, and I'd rather use Audacity than Soundforge.

...and it isn't like the iLife stuff is really comparable to professional quality software. It sure ain't Photoshop.

If you're going that direction - Windows comes with basic video editing and picture editing that is closer to the iLife stuff than the iLife stuff is to things like Photoshop/Premiere/etc.

 

[Eric Perry]

All your qualifications appear to grant you is narcissism. The problem here is that you know you were making disingenuous arguments and instead of just admitting it and moving on like an adult, you've decided that acting like a petulant little child is a better course of action.

You are not a special and unique snowflake. 2+2=5 isn't correct when a mathematician says it. It's always wrong. Qualifications are not a substitute for reason. If you had actual arguments to make, you'd be doing that instead of going on your pathetic little crusade of self-congratulation.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[L-A]

[...]

The biggest problem with OSX.Inqtana.B was not the virus
itself but Sophos antivirus software detecting false positives
and deleting good files. You may have thought you saw it
without actually seeing it.

[...]

Sophos found certain versions of Microsoft Office as containing false positives when they released the first virus definition, I think it was fixed later.

The argument that there are no virii (viruses?) on OS X is false. However, there is a small enough amount of them for dangerous ones to be fixed directly in small OS updates – which is nice.

 

[aborgman]

The things you were referring to are NOT problems on current Macbooks so your point is moot.

I would disagree.

Several issues with Macs have been consistent across a wide range of their OS offerings.

That point is moot because it's incredibly rare that anyone replaces any of those parts outside of warranty on a laptop or all-in-one anyway.

Me: Parts for Apples are more expensive
You: No they aren't.
Me: See - here is a list of more expensive parts.
You: Well, nobody replaces THOSE parts.

How about keyboards? My wife's Macbook Pro went through 3 in 4 years, 2 of 3 after it was out of warranty.

 

[GregC]

Taking anything personal in this discussion will get you no where quick.

I didn't take it personally per se, however I'm one of the few people in this thread prior to your post to specifically say I priced something out and to quote the total prices for each. So it was reasonable to infer that your words applied at least in part to my post. Also, indiscriminately calling arguments that a Mac is overpriced BS isn't too helpful to the discussion.

While your 1 example may have been different, other examples are showing the opposite results.

And that's cool. I wouldn't draw broad conclusions from my comparison and haven't denigrated yours to this point. However, it could be argued that you've stacked the deck in Apple's favor on a couple fronts.

Reread what I said. Even up, most times you will come out even in terms of starting over (mac to PC or PC to Mac).

If you have purchased tons of software and plan to use it again, then you will save money with a PC in some cases. For a new machine, buying the OS with a clean install and purchasing every piece of software the Apple comes with you will find you are getting close to the same price in a retail environment. I have done these comparisons year after year and it is all the same stuff.

Honestly, if you PC is cheaper, and that is the most important thing to you, go for it. I could care less what you own, and work with. I would rather our market share stay down anyway. Let all the PC guys complain about iTunes when syncing their iPods and iPhones, and running anti-virus software (or surfing so carefully you could produce diamonds in your puckered butt hole).

Not to mention, with the Mac, you get all sorts of additional features to compliment you iOS devices, and functionality with other things like Apple TV.

This is a debate which will never be solved, as every camp has people that will tell you different things, and at the end of the day, it is your call.

You want reliable, rock solid performance from your OS, with minimal future expense to upgrade the OS, built in free POWERFUL software, elegant looks and functionality the intuitive interface can give without having multiple "safe guards" running, or having to make sure that link you received isn't sending you into the depths of internet hell... Get a mac.

If you like BSOD, driver downloads, inconsistent versions of software, dime a dozen design with corners so cut it looks and feels like a cheap POS, expensive OS's with many "upgrades" in your future, and the constant need to fix this, defrag that, clean this, repair that.... Stick with a PC.

Based on my own experience, this last paragraph looks like an exaggeration. It seems to assume that PC horror stories are the norm, not the first time that's happened in this thread. I don't argue that PCs are better, I simply don't have the experience with Macs to say that. But the case against PCs seems overstated to me.

 

[GregC]

I saw this thread when it was started 3 days ago. Now I just finished reading through a page of replies and see why the OP hasn't been back.

LOL, it has gotten pretty contentious in here. To be fair, though, I thought the OP posted early on that he'd made his choice.

 

[Kwesi]

EDIT: He said the older MBP, not the older Mac laptops in general.

Yes, sir, I did . I thought we were all talking about laptops here.

 

[aborgman]

I stand corrected. There have been a few Mac OS X viruses.

It is said that OSX.Inqtana.a was a proof of concept virus
and has never been seen in the wild. How did you see it?

I suspect it was someone playing around with low level bluetooth coding, but as always with virii - misidentification is possible.

The biggest problem with OSX.Inqtana.B was not the virus
itself but Sophos antivirus software detecting false positives
and deleting good files. You may have thought you saw it
without actually seeing it.

Renopo.B and opener are the same thing.

All of these viruses are very rare. How did you see them all?

They are relatively rare - but then real virii are on any platform today. Trojans and other "social" infections account for the great majority of all infections.

Do you surf Russian porn sites all day?

No, but it wouldn't have surprised me at all to find out some of the people I supported were.

Trojans can't be considered an OS vulnerability. If you install
unknown software, it could do anything on any platform.

It's partially an OS vulnerability - in fact, it's a perfect example of where Windows has screwed up... allowing things to installed to easily due to default security levels.

By the way, Symantec claims that there are over one million viruses for Windows.

I'd expect more than that.

 

[Turock]

Your arguments up to now are incredibly outdated, and your need to back them up with vague credentials doesn't help.

You describe yourself as a Mac owner (two of them, whoa!), while many contributors in this thread are Mac users. I'll take their advice first, as I have no idea how certifications and ownership make you a specialist in using a Mac.

The built-in batteries in brand spanking new 2011 Macs are hard to replace and not recommended to attempt by Apple. Yeah, that's severely outdated. That they are harder to repair than a PC? I stand by that.
I figured, and guess I was wrong, that you could deduce that since I own a year old Macbook pro and an older mac, that I am indeed a user. I wasn't offering you advice.

 

[Turock]

Yes, sir, I did . I thought we were all talking about laptops here.

If you had looked at that link that I provided for you, you would have seen it is a laptop.

 

[Kwesi]

If you had looked at that link that I provided for you, you would have seen it is a laptop.

Somehow I saw the link but it didn't quite click for me. I blame drowsiness . More specifically, I'm talking about the newer crop of Mac laptops when they split the line into the Macbook and Macbook Pro. I guess that was right around the time they switched to intel chipsets?

 

[Turock]

Somehow I saw the link but it didn't quite click for me. I blame drowsiness . More specifically, I'm talking about the newer crop of Mac laptops when they split the line into the Macbook and Macbook Pro.

Well, when you said "the older ones still weren't all that either", for some reason, that made me think that you were talking about older ones.

 

[NineSpine]

I would disagree.

Several issues with Macs have been consistent across a wide range of their OS offerings.

Then point out THOSE flaws. The fact is that the flaws you pointed out were exclusive to machines built as far back as the 80s. The fact that you would rather engage in sophistry over your ridiculous examples instead of just providing some current ones is evidence that you just plain do not know what you are talking about, and your vitriol and hatred of Apple is significantly more important to you than the facts.

Me: Parts for Apples are more expensive
You: No they aren't.
Me: See - here is a list of more expensive parts.
You: Well, nobody replaces THOSE parts.

How about keyboards? My wife's Macbook Pro went through 3 in 4 years, 2 of 3 after it was out of warranty.

Your personal experience is not proof of larger trends. The fact is that when a major part of a laptop goes for any brand, most people replace the entire laptop. People are not replacing laptop motherboards en masse. Get a grip.

Furthermore, you are surprised that it costs less to replace a crappy cheap screen than a high quality Macbook Pro screen? Really? That's your point?

Guess what? My BMW parts cost more to replace than my Honda Civic part! THE BMW IS A RIP OFF! That's the logic you are using right now. Sure, I can replace some absolute piece of trash Dell laptop keyboard for cheap... because it's cheap keyboard. The important question is not whether it costs more in general. The important question is whether a high quality PC laptop has cheap to replace parts, and it DOESN'T, so the idea that a Macbook Pro should be able to meet the price replacement parts of a $600 laptop is a joke.

 

[NineSpine]

Well, when you said "the older ones still weren't all that either", for some reason, that made me think that you were talking about older ones.

He was talking about the older ones... the older Macbook Pros. That's explicitly what he said. I'm amazed that you are so incredibly lacking in points to make that you are still beating to death your obvious and absurdly disingenuous argument from awhile ago.

 

[Relic]

Can I ask you all a serious question for a moment?

WHY does it really and truly matter to you what freaking computer you use vs what someone else uses?? I go through this like weekly in work with people arguing back and forth.
You guys are cracking me up. Macs are great, PC's are great. We all love them for specific personal valid reasons. If either outright sucked, they'd be long gone and out of business, no? Sheesh just chill out. Kumyabaaa - oh whyyy whyyy cant we all just get along...

 

[NineSpine]

The built-in batteries in brand spanking new 2011 Macs are hard to replace and not recommended to attempt by Apple. Yeah, that's severely outdated. That they are harder to repair than a PC? I stand by that.
I figured, and guess I was wrong, that you could deduce that since I own a year old Macbook pro and an older mac, that I am indeed a user. I wasn't offering you advice.

It takes about ten minutes to replace your battery. Wow, unscrewing a few things, what a shocking load of work:
‪Replacing Battery in 17" unibody Macbook Pro‬‏ - YouTube

 

[NineSpine]

Can I ask you all a serious question for a moment?

WHY does it really and truly matter to you what freaking computer you use vs what someone else uses?? I go through this like weekly in work with people arguing back and forth.
You guys are cracking me up. Macs are great, PC's are great. We all love them for specific personal valid reasons. If either outright sucked, they'd be long gone and out of business, no? Sheesh just chill out. Kumyabaaa - oh whyyy whyyy cant we all just get along...

You are 100% correct. It's inevitable whenever this situation comes up that a bunch of IT people are going to start berating everyone that they have to use a computer the EXACT SAME WAY THAT THEY DO, and therefore shouldn't use a Mac. Meanwhile, they ironically accuse Mac users of being the ones trying to push their consumer choices on everyone else.

All I have always said is that Macs are a great choice for a lot of people. They are not for everyone.

 

[bassplayer1494]

both have there advantages and disadvantages. I own a powerbook G4 and i love it, i also have an eMachines E725 laptop and i love that too. but id prefer mac when it comes to security, web browsing, video editing.. The only real advantage PC has over Mac is gaming imo.

 

[Relic]

You are 100% correct. It's inevitable whenever this situation comes up that a bunch of IT people are going to start berating everyone that they have to use a computer the EXACT SAME WAY THAT THEY DO, and therefore shouldn't use a Mac. Meanwhile, they ironically accuse Mac users of being the ones trying to push their consumer choices on everyone else.

All I have always said is that Macs are a great choice for a lot of people. They are not for everyone.

well, yeah. My point though is that it goes both ways. Mac vs PC, PC vs MAC. When it comes down to it, it really is just personal preference. Valid points get thrown back and forth both ways, ad nauseum and it never seems to end.
I'm not talking about this thread per se, but the "rivalry" in general. Both machines are great at what they do. So what? Use one or the other or both. It's a machine, not a political stance, religious belief system or or some sorta sexual preference!