Mandantory Drug Tests

[Hawaii Islander]

I understand what you're saying...if the last Congress hadn't proved that was a myth, I don't know what will. Politics are verboten though on TB, so that's all I'll say on that. The government, though, acts on it's own accord though sometimes.

Speculative and opinion. I disagree with that opinion of what happened over the past two years, but that's my opinion. Both opinions are valid to those who hold them.

We are governed by human beings. Human beings have a tendency to vary in their opinions and philosophical directions, it's not unexpected to have different viewpoints on all matter of issues. I don't expect to be happy with every public policy decision made at any level, Federal, State or Local.

 

[Kitsapbass]

Speculative and opinion. I disagree with that opinion of what happened over the past two years, but that's my opinion. Both opinions are valid to those who hold them.

We are governed by human beings. Human beings have a tendency to vary in their opinions and philosophical directions, it's not unexpected to have different viewpoints on all matter of issues. I don't expect to be happy with every public policy decision made at any level, Federal, State or Local.

I'll see you that and raise you the eight years previous. Other than that, I'll agree to your post. My point, though, is that our Government at times doing what they wish, irregardless of the majority opinion of its constituents still stands...at lesase, until the offenders get voted out. See 2006, 2008, 2010 for those examples...

 

[DwaynieAD]

I know we probably won't agree on this, which is OK.

In my view, the government plays by our rules. The founders of our democracy wrote this in their little memo to King George:

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed."

except in reality America is an oligarchy

 

[basstotheface]

except in reality America is an oligarchy

In reality America is a Republic.

 

[UncleFluffy]

It could indeed be a fundamental difference. That would be OK. Or maybe I got things garbled up. I think of it in this way:

The mortgage deduction taken by A is a subsidy to A, who uses the money to buy dope. There's no B. I'm using this as an example of a person who gets a subsidy from the government, but who isn't required to take a drug test, because people seem to be outraged by the idea of somebody using tax money to buy drugs.

For the record, I take the mortgage deduction, and I don't buy dope.

If there's no B, then why is A paying taxes in the first place?

Maybe that's where we're not understanding each other.

For me, in this context, the government is a "mechanism" for moving value from one place to another ... it doesn't give subsidies, it provides a means for us to provide subsidies to our neighbours when they need help, i.e. a mortgage deduction isn't A being subsidised by the government, it's A being subsidised by A. (As long as A is still a net contributor after the deduction, of course...)

 

[jp58]

except in reality America is an oligarchy

In reality America is a Republic.

I feel like in many ways, you are both right. In America, it takes "power" to get things accomplished. That power comes in many forms (money, holding office, being a respected action group). A side effect of having power is the desire to keep the power, and to do so the group in power becomes more exclusive. So even though we have the right to vote, it is very unlikely that who wins the election will come from a group outside of power.

 

[basstotheface]

I feel like in many ways, you are both right. In America, it takes "power" to get things accomplished. That power comes in many forms (money, holding office, being a respected action group). A side effect of having power is the desire to keep the power, and to do so the group in power becomes more exclusive. So even though we have the right to vote, it is very unlikely that who wins the election will come from a group outside of power.

I think you're right, but you will be wrong by 2020. Oligarchy in America might be an apt title if we were in the 50s and 60s with the Kennedys. What makes me draw away from the idea that America is an oligarchy, in present times, is Obama. Honestly tell me that his election (no politics here) was born from class.

 

[Kitsapbass]

I think you're right, but you will be wrong by 2020. Oligarchy in America might be an apt title if we were in the 50s and 60s with the Kennedys. What makes me draw away from the idea that America is an oligarchy, in present times, is Obama. Honestly tell me that his election (no politics here) was born from class.

Guys - we are starting to stray from the original topic. I'm merely saying this so the thread does not get shut down, and basstotheface, the only reason I used yours as a quote was because it was the last post before I posted, it wasn't personal at all.

 

[aborgman]

True, up in Michigan its hard to find work...but part of that is location. I'm sure there are plenty of actors in Utah, Iowa, and South Dakota that can't find work in their craft. You have to go where your work is.

...and exactly how does one do that with a couple kids in school, a house with an underwater mortgage, etc.?

For a lot of folks here in Michigan, moving isn't really much of an option either.

Just out of curiousity, are you on the Upper Peninsula, or? I'm not familiar with where you're at.

No - SE Michigan, about 30 miles from Detroit.

 

[aborgman]

With the exception of babies already born with addictions, 100% of the human populace doesn't need to shoot, snort, or toke up.

I'd say the regularity and extended use throughout all of recorded human history (as well as tons of evidence from long before recorded history) of there basically never being a society that DIDN'T engage in some sort of mind altering drug use... might disagree.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

I think you're right, but you will be wrong by 2020. Oligarchy in America might be an apt title if we were in the 50s and 60s with the Kennedys. What makes me draw away from the idea that America is an oligarchy, in present times, is Obama. Honestly tell me that his election (no politics here) was born from class.

Or with the Bush's.

 

[jp58]

I'd say the regularity and extended use throughout all of recorded human history (as well as tons of evidence from long before recorded history) of there basically never being a society that DIDN'T engage in some sort of mind altering drug use... might disagree.

As far as I know, which is around 5 college level history classes, I can't think of a single society we studied that didn't engage in "questionable behavior" especially when compared to the gold standard of today's society. Between homosexuality, public executions, genocides, etc, something such as a mind altering drug pales in comparison, at least IMO.

 

[aborgman]

As far as I know, which is around 5 college level history classes, I can't think of a single society we studied that didn't engage in "questionable behavior" especially when compared to the gold standard of today's society. Between homosexuality, public executions, genocides, etc, something such as a mind altering drug pales in comparison, at least IMO.

Definitely... but that being said, I can't think of a single one that didn't use mind altering drugs.

 

[Kitsapbass]

...and exactly how does one do that with a couple kids in school, a house with an underwater mortgage, etc.?

For a lot of folks here in Michigan, moving isn't really much of an option either.

Wow. I just read your county has a lower unemployment rate then mine does by 2 points. I don't know what to say except maybe I should move there...while I understand what your saying, I ended up getting my job 90 miles away from my previous home. My kids are younger I'm sure (14 to 2 1/2 in age, the youngest two being foster kids) but we had to transfer schools...I'd ask how underwater the mortgage is, but that's WAY too personal, so I won't go there...I know moving isn't an option, but if someone can't find the work, they have a big decision to make. I did that commute for 2 years and it sucked, but it was money and I was happy to make it...

No - SE Michigan, about 30 miles from Detroit.

I checked it on a map, sorry for being lazy - my bad.

 

[fdeck]

If there's no B, then why is A paying taxes in the first place?

Maybe that's where we're not understanding each other.

For me, in this context, the government is a "mechanism" for moving value from one place to another ... it doesn't give subsidies, it provides a means for us to provide subsidies to our neighbours when they need help, i.e. a mortgage deduction isn't A being subsidised by the government, it's A being subsidised by A. (As long as A is still a net contributor after the deduction, of course...)

What's the difference between:

1. Letting me take a writeoff

2. Sending me a check

A subsidy is a financial incentive offered by the government to encourage an activity, such as owning a home.

You favor the labor theory of value, I favor market theory. Likewise I don't believe that economic activity is a zero-sum exchange or redistribution of wealth. So I think we have to agree to disagree here. That's OK. I value your opinion, and recognize that you have raised many interesting points.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

Wow. I just read your county has a lower unemployment rate then mine does by 2 points. I don't know what to say except maybe I should move there...while I understand what your saying, I ended up getting my job 90 miles away from my previous home. My kids are younger I'm sure (14 to 2 1/2 in age, the youngest two being foster kids) but we had to transfer schools...I'd ask how underwater the mortgage is, but that's WAY too personal, so I won't go there...I know moving isn't an option, but if someone can't find the work, they have a big decision to make. I did that commute for 2 years and it sucked, but it was money and I was happy to make it...




I checked it on a map, sorry for being lazy - my bad.

I was laid off May 2008. Sold my personal belongings to ship my car to the mainland and travel to the east coast to look for biotech work early October 2008. By the end of October 2008, the economy was in free fall. I ended up back in Hawaii with no money, no car, no job and no personal belongings except for my clothes. The economy and job market are improving in Hawaii, primarily on Oahu. I live on the Big Island where unemployment was about 14%. It may be down to 9.4% now (official tally which doesn't include people like me whose unemployment insurance ran out long ago). The jobs on Oahu are geared for people already living there ($8 to $10 per hour) and live with friends or relatives. Commuting from the Big Island (Island of Hawaii) to the Island of Oahu would cost approximately $150 per day. Moving to a new place on Oahu is not possible without moving in with someone already living there due to cost of housing. I'm a single male, so I am ineligible for housing assistance. Relocating for work requires that I get a suitable job that can cover the cost of moving.

In short, moving to a job is easier said than done for many people.

 

[UncleFluffy]

What's the difference between:

1. Letting me take a writeoff

2. Sending me a check

(1) is limited to the total tax that would have been paid without the writeoff, (2) is not. Which means that (1) is almost certain to be remain a net subsidiser, (2) may end up a net subsidiser or a net subsidisee (is that even a word?) depending on the various other flows of value between them and the government.

A subsidy is a financial incentive offered by the government to encourage an activity, such as owning a home.

You favor the labor theory of value, I favor market theory. Likewise I don't believe that economic activity is a zero-sum exchange or redistribution of wealth. So I think we have to agree to disagree here. That's OK.

I don't particularly favour one or another, just different tools for different types of analysis. Though, I will say that although I agree that economics is definitely not zero-sum, it can certainly be just redistribution of wealth in some circumstances. (Or possibly even destruction, if wealth is traded for "illth").

I value your opinion, and recognize that you have raised many interesting points.

Thankyou, it's been an enjoyable discussion.

 

[Kitsapbass]

I was laid off May 2008. Sold my personal belongings to ship my car to the mainland and travel to the east coast to look for biotech work early October 2008. By the end of October 2008, the economy was in free fall. I ended up back in Hawaii with no money, no car, no job and no personal belongings except for my clothes. The economy and job market are improving in Hawaii, primarily on Oahu. I live on the Big Island where unemployment was about 14%. It may be down to 9.4% now (official tally which doesn't include people like me whose unemployment insurance ran out long ago). The jobs on Oahu are geared for people already living there ($8 to $10 per hour) and live with friends or relatives. Commuting from the Big Island (Island of Hawaii) to the Island of Oahu would cost approximately $150 per day. Moving to a new place on Oahu is not possible without moving in with someone already living there due to cost of housing. I'm a single male, so I am ineligible for housing assistance. Relocating for work requires that I get a suitable job that can cover the cost of moving.

In short, moving to a job is easier said than done for many people.

I understand, I do. I'm just saying you're right. I don't have to ferry to work (some of the people I work with do), I was able to drive a long distance. That's part of the whole going where the jobs is though. That's one reason I moved from the Bay Area. The money I was spending for the share of the rent of the house in San Jose is still more than I'm paying for my house now. I went where the jobs were available, because with my skill set, I could make $17 an hour and pay huge rent or make $16 an hour, but pay less than a third of what I was paying...now I make a lot more than that, but that's because I have seniority and have even more job skills. That was a call I had to make. It's hard saying anything about Hawaii, because you have to make an effort to go to another island, where in the 48 contiguous, you can just hop in your car, get on a highway and go. I definitely have sympathy for you man.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I'd say the regularity and extended use throughout all of recorded human history (as well as tons of evidence from long before recorded history) of there basically never being a society that DIDN'T engage in some sort of mind altering drug use... might disagree.

Doesn't use and doesn't need are two completely different things. A person (and by extension society) can make it through life without doing some kind of mind altering drug. It is not a necessity.

 

[Pacman]

and another thread dies because of politics.