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Mandantory Drug Tests

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why? again, it doesnt hurt. its quick. why not? id be proud to take a urine test every day.

So you would be proud to waste all the money that taking a daily urine test would cost in man/lab hours and money? Proud to clog up the system with unnecessary tests? And you were complaining about wasted money...


now that you mention it.. yes. thats a fantastic idea. the amount of money i watched kids waste in college was ridiculous. buying alcohol, tattoos and cigarettes with financial aid money. that was silly, but entirely legal. but them buying drugs with the governments money.. thats bad news. so yes, if you want the government's money, you abide he law. im 100% for that idea.

now thats just silly. you cant use the library to get high. you cant waste government money by riding the bus to do anything. it was going there anyway. even if you buy an 8 ball once you get off the bus.

we are talking about the government giving people money to do with what they please, under the guise that they are going to use it to feed themselves, support their children, etc. walking down the street isnt free money.

You entirely missed the point. A lot of things are subsidized, including college aid money, and a bunch more are ran on the government's (taxpayer's) dime. Picking and choosing which areas to test is wrong. Saying "I only want to test college students and poor people because they are all stoners, but not baby boomers (who happen to be the most rapidly growing age group to use illicit substances)," is discriminatory, and not the good kind. Picking and choosing which subsidised fields to test is also wrong. I could say that 25% of people I see in libraries are stoned, and they should all be tested everytime they enter a library, and would be using the same false assumption you are operating under.


nothing, so long as it is within the confines of the law. if you dont like it, go to canada.

I already live here, and as the law is written here, it is illegal to subject people to searches/tests without due cause or a waiver. As I have stated before and maintain, requiring/using/accepting government aid of any kind IS NOT due cause. Tests based soley on those grounds are unconstitutional.



i wouldnt take it personally. i suspect everyone. always. because i know people, and they are by genetic make up stupid and weak. id say 25% of the people i see on a daily basis are clearly on dope. they should be punished.

I find it really difficult to believe that a quarter of the people you come in contact with on a regular basis are on dope, and if so, then isn't that a fault of your own for not surrounding yourself with morally upstanding citizens?

we've set up cameras to catch those who break traffic laws, but everyone is being watched. even those with nothing to hide. certainly their rights have somehow been trampled upon.

No. When you get your driver's license, you agree to submit yourself to the rules of the road and the means of enforcing those rules. Using your license is a conscious acceptance of those rules.

but if it turns out average joe lost his job and his wife and his job was outsourced and he never went to college and his house was struck by lightning and he couldnt pay his insurance with no job and he sleeps in his car.. and he HAPPENS to be a coke addict.. well, then he had every bit of that coming to him. hes a criminal. hes not a victim in any way.

If he is an addict, and suffering from mental or physical addiction, he is in need of more aid than just money. Addicts are people too.

the idea here isnt to snoop in peoples' lives for fun, its to weed out those who do not deserve this money. unfortunately, like most ideas that are based on charity and good will, people had to go and ruin it like the savage bastards they are.

The problem there is that you are directly snooping in people's lives. You are searching them without their consent and without probable cause. This isn't something based on charity, it is based on establishing a minimum standard of living, which is something that all first world countries have.
 
So you would be proud to waste all the money that taking a daily urine test would cost in man/lab hours and money? Proud to clog up the system with unnecessary tests? And you were complaining about wasted money...

i didnt say it was productive. i just dont mind people knowing that about me. i wouldnt mind taking that test. does it need to be done? no. because im one of the few pure souls left on this planet. but if it somehow became mandatory, i surely wouldnt be bitching. or in jail.

You entirely missed the point. A lot of things are subsidized, including college aid money, and a bunch more are ran on the government's (taxpayer's) dime. Picking and choosing which areas to test is wrong. Saying "I only want to test college students and poor people because they are all stoners, but not baby boomers (who happen to be the most rapidly growing age group to use illicit substances)," is discriminatory, and not the good kind. Picking and choosing which subsidised fields to test is also wrong. I could say that 25% of people I see in libraries are stoned, and they should all be tested everytime they enter a library, and would be using the same false assumption you are operating under.

people are GIVEN and LENDED money that they will never give back. making sure they dont waste it on dope doesnt seem like that hard of a concept to me.

the idea is that for whatever reason, they cant afford to live or become educated and productive. so lets assure they are using this money to live or become educated and productive, not smoke their brains to mush.

if baby boomers (or anyone for that matter) want government money, they shouldnt have outstanding warrants, fines, and should be free of illegal substance. id be more than happy to abide by that law.

I find it really difficult to believe that a quarter of the people you come in contact with on a regular basis are on dope, and if so, then isn't that a fault of your own for not surrounding yourself with morally upstanding citizens?

i work in a grocery store. the employees are stoned (or waiting to be), the kids are all stoned, the parents are buzzed and the old people are flying on too much medication. 25% is a safe number.

and why should *I* have to move away from THEM? THEY are the ones breaking the law. it is infuriating that drug use has become so commonplace and casual. no one gets mad anymore. 10 years ago if someone in the family was discovered to be doing drugs, they'd have been taken out back and beaten. now we find out my niece is doing drugs and no one does anything. times change, and they suck now.

If he is an addict, and suffering from mental or physical addiction, he is in need of more aid than just money.

he needs more help than anyone can give him. beating addiction is within you.

Addicts are people too.

HAHAHA no they arent! at least not as long as they are addicts.

The problem there is that you are directly snooping in people's lives. You are searching them without their consent and without probable cause. This isn't something based on charity, it is based on establishing a minimum standard of living, which is something that all first world countries have.

we are searching for illegal things. airport security (even before it got ridiculous) was looking into peoples lives for the greater good of safety and upholding the law. how is that any different from being handed money for potentially no reason at all.

ive scraped the bottom just about all my life. it could have only gotten just a step worse, and i made better for myself by making good choices and working hard. those who make bad choices and dont work hard are often given hand outs. thats the minimum standard? having no pride or dignity and being handed money that i worked for.

i call shenanigans.

those who want this money should play by the rules or suffer for it. theres a such thing as too much humanity and compassion.
 
I'm a substance abuse counselor and I don't think people should be drug screened in order to receive assistance. My views are based primarily on drug addicts rather than occasional users. Costs and treatment lengths are also based on the agency I worked for and the knowledge I gained from interviewing with agencies within my county. YMMV.

If someone tests positive on a drug screen it doesn't necessarily mean they don't legitimately need financial assistance. Recreational users don't do drugs on a daily basis. Some might only do them once a month or even less. Think of it like you would a social drinker; many of them only have a drink or two at special occasions and often times their friends will pay for the drink if they are unemployed. Many recreational users are the same way, they only do a drug at a special occasion. Due to their financial situation; a good friend will be the one to get them high. Good friends will also give the person with no to little income some of their drugs if they have enough to spare. So, it is quite possible that the person failing the drug screen does not spend so much as a penny on drugs and still legitimately needs the financial aid to help them put food on the table and pay other bills. Especially in the case of single parents.


There are currently many addicts receiving assistance and many others that will need it; because, through no fault of their own, became unemployed. Yet, they'll be denied because of their addiction when it had nothing to do with their change in financial status.

I've heard, and read about, how most people throughout the country (including politicians of all parties) bitch, moan, and groan about how it's not right that insurance companies deny coverage to individuals with preexisting conditions. Denying assistance to someone solely based on being an addict is no different than what the insurance companies are doing. A bit hypocritical don't you think? It's also my opinion, that it's also discriminatory in practice because you're denying someone something based on a legitimate medical condition. Like it or not, addiction is a legitimate disease.

Many addicts are impoverished and not solely because of their addiction. Many are on probation and paying rather hefty sums in court costs, probation fees, and public defender fees. This does not help their impoverishment.

Then, you have to take into account they also have to pay for any court-ordered substance abuse counseling. Many agencies make the client pay for their weekly and/or random testing too. None of which is cheap. Counseling varies from $25 per week and up, per group. The drug screens, IIRC, cost them either $15 or $25 and upward. That's $40 - $50 per week based on 1 group and 1 drug screen per week, for a minimum of 12 weeks.

Though that's the minimum, the counselor can assess more than 12 weeks and more than one group per week if they feel the client needs it; and many times they do. Should they fail a drug screen they can have the results sent to the lab, but if it comes back with a positive result, that's another $25 hit they have to take.

There is also the slip/lapse factor. (not to be confused with relapse) Every addict has at least one. I've never met or counseled one that hasn't. Nor has any counselor I know. After they slip, (and providing their probation officer follows our recommendation to not violate them), they have to restart the entire program over. This only further adds to their impoverishment.

Yes, some will spend the money on drugs and alcohol, but some won't. By denying financial assistance to all that fail a drug test, especially the ones that had a slip, you're unjustly punishing the one's that are honestly trying. Overall, by denying addicts the assistance they need, you are actually financially hurting them even further, rather than helping them.

The agency I worked for had our counties drug court contract, and is also the largest substance abuse agency in the county. I digress. By populous, my county is one of the 10 largest in the state of Florida. So, it's not like we're small. Two of my responsibilities there included ordering the drug screening materials and testing the clients.

The test panels range from a single panel dip, to IIRC as many as 32 or more. Obviously the more panels on the dip, the more they cost.

We used, single and 6 panel dips, with 6 panel being the norm. A single purchase order, not including PH strips to test for validity, the urine cups, and temperature strips, were costing us a small fortune.

The cost for the state would be significantly larger than what we were spending for our 3 offices. You're looking at the state spending millions of dollars rather than the few thousand each month. The cost to the state would inflate even more if it were to send each individual specimen to a lab for testing, rather than ordering the panels, and doing it on site. Then there's also the training costs involved they'd have to pay. It's not fiscally responsible for the state to incur these types of liabilities when it claims to not have money for things like education.

Conducting drug screens is also quite time consuming. Most of the state offices that handle welfare are understaffed. We only had 16 people working for our entire company. With 2 females, and 2 males doing the screens, it would take on average, up to 3.5 hours to screen everyone in the main office. We did on average between 40-50 people a night. There's paper work involved, then even more paperwork when someone challenges the results of a positive test. You also have people that can't go when you need them too, so you have to wait on them. This all makes the entire process time consuming. There are only a limited amount of welfare offices in any given county and it's usually not very many. These offices are fairly busy throughout the day and they are already having a hard time keeping up with the case load. Drug testing would only further encumber their already understaffed offices. To put it simply, the don't have the time, nor do they have the man power to do this. The state would have to hire a considerable amount of people to be able to efficiently do this.

Employees and benefits cost money. They would be looking at having to spend millions of dollars in addition to the aforementioned I listed above. This money has to come from somewhere and the best way to get it would be to raise your taxes. The biggest reason(s) I hear supporting mandatory screening and anti socialized health care are, "I don't want to have to pay higher taxes to support drug addicts on welfare" and "I don't want my taxes to raise to have to fund health care." Yet, you're willing to risk a tax increase to fund a mandatory screening process for welfare. Sounds like more hypocrisy to me.

Another thing that has to be factored in is, most of the commonly used drugs are out of your system on average between 3-5 days. Marijuana is the biggest exception. It takes between 4-6 weeks on average. The addict that wants to cheat the system and get the "free money" will endure the hell of detoxing for a few day in order to get that check. There are also many ways to successfully mask a drug screen. These 2 facts also make mandatory drug testing impractical.

To you naysayers that say things like "we overlook drug use." No we don't, we have some of the harshest laws on the planet when it comes to drug offenders. We also have more people in jail/prison for drug charges than any other crime.

You seldom hear of people getting mad at someone for having Cancer, Diabetes, Lupus, Heart Disease, etc, people are sympathetic towards them. If you have the disease of addiction, its quite the opposite. People think you're scum, they also shun and ostracize you. We as a society need to change the backwards mentality we have towards addicts. Addiction is no less a disease than any of the aforementioned ones in this paragraph.
 
as a young person of the world, from what i can tell, its damn near everyone. young people are stupid. more stupid than any other kind of people. and i havent met that many people on financial aid with jobs.


As a young person, I guarantee you haven't seen nearly enough people to make an honest sample of people. You don't meet all the students who are on financial aid with jobs because they are working. Every one of my friends worked their way through school on a combination of financial aid and jobs, and if i didn't meet them in class, i would never have met them--they work. Just because you hang out with a bunch of slackers doesn't mean the whole world is.

i work in a grocery store. the employees are stoned (or waiting to be), the kids are all stoned, the parents are buzzed and the old people are flying on too much medication. 25% is a safe number.

are they all on gov't assistance too? if not, then it's immaterial to your argument. If you can buy drugs with your own money, then what's the problem? they aren't using gov't money, so your number is skewed. The percentage in real question is what percentage of people on aid spend their assistance money on drugs. Then you'd have to compare that to the cost of each drug test with the benefit of catching them on drugs. What would they do? stop giving them aid? well, they still need money, so then what? they can't get a job, so maybe they steal. If they get caught, they go to jail, and they are still living on the public dime. Congrats, you just accomplished nothing lol
 
@cassanova

Great post! Your post was very informative and should give pause to those who are quick to complain (whine) about people who they really know very little about.

As a graduate with a Masters in Public Health and a second Masters in Microbiology, I agree (as do most health professionals and scientists) that drug addiction/dependency is an illness and should be treated as such. Demonizing sick people is downright obnoxious and disgusting IMO.

Thanks for your good work! ;)
 
@cassanova

Great post! Your post was very informative and should give pause to those who are quick to complain (whine) about people who they really know very little about.

As a graduate with a Masters in Public Health and a second Masters in Microbiology, I agree (as do most health professionals and scientists) that drug addiction/dependency is an illness and should be treated as such. Demonizing sick people is downright obnoxious and disgusting IMO.

Thanks for your good work! ;)

+2 ; )
 
And when those manual laborers are unemployed, we fire the formerly unemployed who took their jobs and give them back to the newly unemployed former manual laborers?

We could just hand JonnoThomas a shovel and a pick and tell him to get digging. He could take the place of all the Union guys that he wants fired. When he keels over from exhaustion (or gets a really bad splinter in his fret hand), we can rehire all the Union guys that he had fired. :smug::D
 
im not discussing a genocide. we are the laughing stock of the world. we tighten things up a bit, maybe we wont be so damn stupid as a nation. we are dumb enough as a species, we dont need this sect of said species to get any worse, and yet, we do.

You inferred that intelligence and genetics were interwined, hence my eye roll. I would have assumed that you were being hyperbolic. However, a few posts down, you said you were being serious, so I took the statement at face value.
 
If someone tests positive on a drug screen it doesn't necessarily mean they don't legitimately need financial assistance. Recreational users don't do drugs on a daily basis. Some might only do them once a month or even less. Think of it like you would a social drinker; many of them only have a drink or two at special occasions and often times their friends will pay for the drink if they are unemployed. Many recreational users are the same way, they only do a drug at a special occasion. Due to their financial situation; a good friend will be the one to get them high. Good friends will also give the person with no to little income some of their drugs if they have enough to spare. So, it is quite possible that the person failing the drug screen does not spend so much as a penny on drugs and still legitimately needs the financial aid to help them put food on the table and pay other bills. Especially in the case of single parents.

That's a very fair point, and I didn't consider that. Even though (when I was still a stoner) I did it and had it done for me a thousand times.

You seldom hear of people getting mad at someone for having Cancer, Diabetes, Lupus, Heart Disease, etc, people are sympathetic towards them. If you have the disease of addiction, its quite the opposite. People think you're scum, they also shun and ostracize you. We as a society need to change the backwards mentality we have towards addicts. Addiction is no less a disease than any of the aforementioned ones in this paragraph.

Well, my personal experience with addicts is that (a) they often steal stuff, and (b) they are really boring to hang out with - so avoiding their company is more of a pragmatic than a moral issue for me.

As far as "social judgment" goes, I agree with you part-way - maybe we should judge addicts no more harshly than, say, a diabetic who drank three bottles of Coke a day for 10 years.

The culture in medicine is judgment free, and it has to be to work properly. But society as a whole has a right to differentiate somehow between people who got hit on the head by a rock falling out of the sky and people who picked up a hammer and hit themselves with it.

(And, yes, this is a simplification - there's a million grey areas and mental illness issues, no argument from me there).
 
@cassanova

Great post! Your post was very informative and should give pause to those who are quick to complain (whine) about people who they really know very little about.

As a graduate with a Masters in Public Health and a second Masters in Microbiology, I agree (as do most health professionals and scientists) that drug addiction/dependency is an illness and should be treated as such. Demonizing sick people is downright obnoxious and disgusting IMO.

Thanks for your good work! ;)

I will +3 that.
 
are they all on gov't assistance too? if not, then it's immaterial to your argument.

If you can buy drugs with your own money, then what's the problem? they aren't using gov't money, so your number is skewed. The percentage in real question is what percentage of people on aid spend their assistance money on drugs.

Then you'd have to compare that to the cost of each drug test with the benefit of catching them on drugs. What would they do? stop giving them aid?

well, they still need money, so then what?

they can't get a job, so maybe they steal. If they get caught, they go to jail, and they are still living on the public dime. Congrats, you just accomplished nothing lol

some of them, yes. where do you suppose i get this perspective? their mouths.

you're assuming they make no money, which a lot of the time is false. you cant say they used the government's 20 dollars on groceries and their own 20 dollars on percaset. once its in their hands, all the money is the same. the second they start getting help buying groceries, they all of a sudden arent going to STOP being a drug user. they should.. because thats getting your priorities straight, but ive met very few people on earth that have their priorities straight.

yes. we stop helping the criminals. how is that so hard to understand

and clearly they DONT need money if they are still buying drugs. that would imply that either they are too stupid to deserve it or never needed the money in the first place.

if they steal, thats their own fault. why should we have to lower our standards to say that if we dont give them money for food and possibly drugs, that they will turn to other crimes? thats ridiculous. it is on them at that point, not us for not helping them steer a better course after THEY blatantly screwed up on their own free will. you're completely cutting out the concept of CONSEQUENCES. people should be held accountable for their mistakes.

again. theres such a thing as too much humility. darwinism is a proven science. why should we intervene?
 
I have no argument hear, but hear is a thought off the top of my head.

If a person fails a drug test and losses his benifits, this same person can't find a job for the same exact same reason he lost his benefits in the first place; he can't pass a drug test.
 
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