Marine Vs. HOA over a flagpole

[LM Bass]

As a Canadian, American patriotism has always been interesting to me (we're outwardly pretty reserved about our country, but not about hockey -go Canucks!).

Reading the story, my gut feeling is to side with the ex-marine and say let him fly it proudly, he's earned that right.

 

[Batmensch]

Nobody is keeping him from flying any flags.
Nobody.
He just wants to use a twenty foot pole, instead of the 6 foot pole allowed by the bylaws that he agreed to. Again, it's not about the flags, it's about the pole.
He has to follow the rules like anybody else.

 

[sandmangeck]

The guy will end up paying the fines, and lowering his pole.

 

[WickedPissah]

I feel like he's playing the oppressed veteran card because he can't be arsed to go down to Home Depot and buy a regulation flagpole.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

He moved into the home. He knew the HOA rules. CASE CLOSED.

+1
This is all it is.

 

[cassanova]

You're just getting tangential. It is wrong to disobey rules, that is all. Everyone does it but not everyone claims they are doing the right thing while breaking a rule.

He just wants to use a twenty foot pole, instead of the 6 foot pole allowed by the bylaws that he agreed to. Again, it's not about the flags, it's about the pole.
He has to follow the rules like anybody else.

Nice use of critical thinking skills. Just because "rules are rules" doesn't make them right. This guy is doing the right thing by not taking the flag down. This is how changes in the rules come about, by people like this Marine fighting them. No rules/laws ever get changed without people being noncompliant to them.

Lets use a woman named Rosa Parks as a great example. It was a rule that black people had to sit at the back of the bus, she broke the rule. By your logic, she was wrong. Afterall, uou are saying things like, "rules are rules and everyone must follow them." So was she wrong too? For that matter, was the entire civil rights movement wrong? They were breaking the rules at the time. Heck, what about runaway slaves? They were considered property back then and anyone that found and didn't return a runaway slave was guilty of committing a crime. Were those that ran away? That was against the rules too, were they wrong to do so? Were those that didn't return a runaway slave wrong? After all, those were the rules and everyone must follow the rules.

Nobody is keeping him from flying any flags Nobody..

As per Text of H.R. 42 [109th]: Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005. SEC. 3. RIGHT TO DISPLAY THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES.
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"A condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use."

As per merriam-webster dictionary:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/restrict

restrict: 1. to confine within bounds: restrain; 2. to place under restrictions as to use or distribution


The HOA telling him he has to take the flag down because the pole is too high, is in fact, a restriction on his flying the flag. The HOA are the one's violating the law and this mans rights. Hence, placing them in the wrong, not the Marine.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

I want to fly a flag from an armed and functional tank in my drive, don't restrict me!

 

[root fifth]

Thank you cassanova!Some one that sees the point and made better examples than i could!

 

[Pilgrim]

As per Text of H.R. 42 [109th]: Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005. SEC. 3. RIGHT TO DISPLAY THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES.
Invalid Link Removed

"A condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use."

As per merriam-webster dictionary:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/restrict

restrict: 1. to confine within bounds: restrain; 2. to place under restrictions as to use or distribution

The HOA telling him he has to take the flag down because the pole is too high, is in fact, a restriction on his flying the flag. The HOA are the one's violating the law and this mans rights. Hence, placing them in the wrong, not the Marine.

This is where I (and lawyers) would disagree. The HOA is not restricting his right to have a flag on display at any time. It is defining the size limits and placement of the structure used to display the flag.

There have been numerous cases in which tall flagpoles have been erected in quiet residential neighborhoods and the noise caused by the ropes and hardware clanging off the side in wind, and the flapping of the large flag have been alleged to provide a nuisance in terms of noise. I don't know the disposition of those cases, but there is a potential nuisance in addition to the size of the flagpole.

IMO - and that's just it, opinion - the HOA is not restraining him from "...displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association...". He can display it any time he wants to.

I'm not sympathetic. There is some weird thing in some people that not only makes them want to act like super-patriots, they feel compelled to display that attitude and rub it in everyone else's faces. That's where the conflicts occur. This guy is front and center in that behavior category.

 

[basstotheface]

Nice use of critical thinking skills. Just because "rules are rules" doesn't make them right. This guy is doing the right thing by not taking the flag down. This is how changes in the rules come about, by people like this Marine fighting them. No rules/laws ever get changed without people being noncompliant to them.

Lets use a woman named Rosa Parks as a great example. It was a rule that black people had to sit at the back of the bus, she broke the rule. By your logic, she was wrong. Afterall, uou are saying things like, "rules are rules and everyone must follow them." So was she wrong too? For that matter, was the entire civil rights movement wrong? They were breaking the rules at the time. Heck, what about runaway slaves? They were considered property back then and anyone that found and didn't return a runaway slave was guilty of committing a crime. Were those that ran away? That was against the rules too, were they wrong to do so? Were those that didn't return a runaway slave wrong? After all, those were the rules and everyone must follow the rules.

This is exactly what I mean by tangential. You can't think of a real reason why this man, who agreed to rules, should be able to break them. So you use crazy examples that have nothing to do with this case. Did Rosa Parks agree to sit in the back of the bus? Did she have the choice to go somewhere else so that she could sit wherever she wants? Did slaves have the choice to not be slaves?

 

[root fifth]

You say he chose to live there well you chose to live in U.S.A so abide all laws and rules to the T!If you dont you have no room to judge others that dont!So if you are to scared to stand for your self run and leave the states!This is what you are asking him to do run from a rule instead of trying to fix it!

 

[root fifth]

I for one am glad people like rosa did not just move to some where where the laws were more what she wanted instead she did what she though was right!

 

[Pilgrim]

I for one am glad people like rosa did not just move to some where where the laws were more what she wanted instead she did what she though was right!

I agree with you. However, there is a difference between civil disobedience in Rosa Parks' case and insisting on flying a flag at an obnoxious height after agreeing to the HOA rules which prohibit you from doing so. When you buy the house, you are bound by the HOA rules whether you like them or not. That's the law. You are also bound to any FUTURE changes in HOA rules whether you like them or not. Why? Because you're a member of the HOA and can vote on changes.

If this guy wants to fly a flag umpty-feet up, his recourse is to work with other members of the HOA and initiate a change in the bylaws. If he can't get enough support to do that, he's out of luck. Of course, he can sue the HOA for a change, and after he loses, he will have wasted a lot of his money and t lot of the HOA's money. That's how it works.

There is no respect in which this incident rises to the level of Rosa Parks' courageous action.

I think many people posting here are not aware of the legal process and issues involved in HOA actions. I've been an officer and occasional president of a very good HOA for a number of years, so I have a pretty good feel for this situation.

 

[dj150888]

Are people REALLY comparing this to Rosa Parks and the civil rights movement?! Sweet jesus.

 

[ADbassman]

As a military man myself, I find it odd that another military man would openly challenge a set of rules he agreed to. They aren't restricting his right to fly a flag. He has that right if he can be bothered to buy a regulation pole. Patriotism is a fine thing, but this country goes overboard with it on occasion. Him and I are just ordinary people doing an ordinary job that we agreed to do. I don't ask for any special privilege and neither should he.

 

[Eric Perry]

He served his country, so now he is allowed to be above the rules of others? Granted this is pretty minor in the grand scheme.




The way I see it, he gave them his way or the highway, hardly working with them.

Exactly.

I thought Marines were taught to respect authority, not just authority they agree with.

I know more than several marines who make up their own rules whenever they see fit!

Marines are taught to respect Marine Corps authority and hold everyone else in contempt...

That's apparently what this guy is doing.

 

[sloasdaylight]

Marines are taught to respect Marine Corps authority and hold everyone else in contempt. The HOA is run by civilians, therefore they are not worthy of respect - or obedience

If this guy was still in the Corps, and showed this kind of open defiance to his superiors, he'd be facing Brig time

Rofl.

 

[Febs]

As per Text of H.R. 42 [109th]: Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005. SEC. 3. RIGHT TO DISPLAY THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES.
Invalid Link Removed

"A condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use."

As per merriam-webster dictionary:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/restrict

restrict: 1. to confine within bounds: restrain; 2. to place under restrictions as to use or distribution


The HOA telling him he has to take the flag down because the pole is too high, is in fact, a restriction on his flying the flag. The HOA are the one's violating the law and this mans rights. Hence, placing them in the wrong, not the Marine.

Hmmmmm. It seems like you forgot to quote section 4:

SEC. 4. LIMITATIONS.

Nothing in this Act shall be considered to permit any display or use that is inconsistent with--

...

(2) any reasonable restriction pertaining to the time, place, or manner of displaying the flag of the United States necessary to protect a substantial interest of the condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association.

Do you claim that the HOA's rule here is not a "reasonable restriction pertaining to the ... manner of displaying the flag ..."

Was this bill ever signed into law?

 

[BartmanPDX]

They gave avery good reason. It's the rules that everybody lives there has to abide by. It's the rules he would have had to agree to when he moved there. He can't arbitrarily decide that he doesn't want abide by those rules anymore simply because he wants to have a bigger pole than everybody else.

Heh heh.

There may be something to that.

 

[Gard]

Dude did this to himself, he should have been aware of the HOA rules prior to moving into the development.

FWIW, this is why I flat refuse to live in a neighborhood with an HOA, it's MY house, if I want a 20' flag pole I'll damn well have one, and no needle-d!*% busybody nebbish is gonna tell me otherwise.

Matter of fact, here's my flag:

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