Markbass vs DBX compressor

[bongomania]

NOTE: Not arguing, just answering...

I've always found it somewhat ironic that people refer to this magical sound that "iron" supposedly imparts ... while the main point of it, historically, has been the utilitarian function of impedance matching, and to do it transparently.

Seems to me that, with most anything, by the time you're hitting a tranny hard enough to get any sort of character, you are probably clipping something else that will hardly add anything "magical" to the equation. So the only thing I can think of is the slowing of the transient response. Either way, I'm at somewhat of a loss as to what this "magic" is that people talk about ... particularly with the old API and Neve consoles, unless it's just a nostalgia thing.

Any thoughts?

This is one of those things that may have to be heard to be understood. Xfo's can and often do alter the shape and/or timing of the signal that passes through them, even without getting to the point of severe clipping. It's just like some tube stages in that way--not all of a tube gain stage's coloration occurs during hard clipping (of course I'm referring to tube stages that were not designed for transparency). I have to emphasize the change in wave shape not just timing.

I've owned probably three dozen or more tube gain stage devices; of those, the "best sounding" to my totally subjective ears were the ones that had an output xfo. Additionally, the Phoenix Audio UK "Nice DI" that I owned uses only the xfo part, no tubes, and it had like 90% of the (clean, not overtly clipped) tone quality I liked so much in the better tube devices. Of course they custom-designed their xfo's for coloration; but many xfo's have those qualities without meaning to. Contrariwise, Jensen designs theirs to be as transparent as possible.

 

[Aaron_D]

Let's play a game. Which of these comments came from Bongo in this thread, and which came from Bongo's compressor reviews?

dbx is nothing special, by any standard.

but of the 10 or 11 dbx units I've owned, all but one had issues of some kind

The (dbx) X/XT is highly recommended!

 

[boomertech]

boomertech, speed is not only factor. While you can speed-up attack time of optos (by servo or what is simply HF shelf EQ before opto-cell), you are limited in release time (time between completely removing light source and resistive element reaching some Rdark resistance, and this is dependant on type of material LDR is made of). However, bigger issues are static control law of led-ldr combo and dynamic effect (like memory effect and dependence of speed to light level applied). So opto-emulations are still opto-alike, you can't really nail it.

edit: BTW1 all compressors with full wave rectifier detector impose some third (and generally odd order distortion), however I've seen here and there pedal comps that are based around half wave detection, and those have dominantly second/even order distortion. BTW2 starved triodes are much closer to FETs in performance, but half of "toob magick" is in output transformers anyway. BTW3 to boomertech: while I consider 100uS fast enough for any sane compressor duty, if you want "safe" limiting there is this old trick (I think even dbx used it): human ear doesn't perceive clipping as distortion if it appears at less then 1mS transients here and there, so you apply limiting with something like 200-400uS attack rate, and "shave off" any super fast transient with back-2-back zeners afterwards, chosen to clip signal at 3-6dB above "real" limit threshold

I understand that speed isn’t the only factor, but it is the one factor that I used to base my statement upon. My point is… that with these very fast opto’s with a well designed servo circuit that the old school of thought about opto compression no longer applies. With a well designed servo control, a lot of the opto flavor can be negated to behave more like common VCA compression that is entirely based on the side-chain control. Most people still compare reaction time of opto vs VCA like a horse and wagon to a Ferrari. My intent was never to claim that VCA’s and opto’s are equal, but that the common perception of the speed gap between the two is narrower than ever before in the use of compression. I was just making a valid, general statement while trying to avoid my typical “ever-so-long” discussions of technical aspects.

The second harmonic that I observed with the TCS was far beyond any levels that I have ever seen from CV ripple. If I remember correctly, the harmonic was approximately the same amplitude as the fundamental (and it was all second). I do think that ART was creating the harmonic with the tube circuit since I didn’t detect any distortions of any magnitude from the CV when the tube circuit was not engaged. It has been several years since I did this FFT, so I may have had the threshold “off” and was just looking at the differences that the tube circuit made (so I wouldn’t have seen any CV distortions). Could the TCS tube switch also engage half-wave signal multiplication upon the CV? It’s possible, but as I stated to chessrocks, I don’t know how ART actually achieves their tube “warmth” without documentation. If you know please provide a link, because now I am kind of interested.

As for the OP’s search for the Incubus bass tone. I agree with the others that have stated that the compression may not be the main ingredient for the tone. But you may want to add some compression since he uses a Demeter. I don’t think that you need the Demeter because any quality compressor should get you close enough. IMO, if you can find a TCS you will cover a wide range of compression needs and the tube “warmth” is a nice added feature. The TCS also has a convenient instrument jack on the faceplate.

-Frank

 

[bongomania]

Let's play a game. Which of these comments came from Bongo in this thread, and which came from Bongo's compressor reviews?

I explained my intention with those statements clearly. To put a finer point on it, if dbx wasn't being held up as the standard by which the Markbass is a "toy", I never would have said it the way I did here. BTW me saying that at this moment is not addressed to/at chessrocks, it's only an answer to this specific post.

Every piece of gear has flaws. I've had many mechanical failures/issues crop up with units that I recommend--Ashly, Aphex, EBS, dbx, many others. If you look at my recently-redone review of the 166 series, you'll see I call attention to the older ones having issues and needing service. I still recommend them, because their pros outweigh their cons.

I even had an FEA pedal "go bad" on me one time! Naturally Frank took care of it.

Anyway, I detest being in this position, between explaining myself and being perceived as "defensive". Perhaps I need to take some time away from TB.

 

[4StringAxe]

I explained my intention with those statements clearly. To put a finer point on it, if dbx wasn't being held up as the standard by which the Markbass is a "toy", I never would have said it the way I did here. BTW me saying that at this moment is not addressed to/at chessrocks, it's only an answer to this specific post.

Every piece of gear has flaws. I've had many mechanical failures/issues crop up with units that I recommend--Ashly, Aphex, EBS, dbx, many others. If you look at my recently-redone review of the 166 series, you'll see I call attention to the older ones having issues and needing service. I still recommend them, because their pros outweigh their cons.

I even had an FEA pedal "go bad" on me one time! Naturally Frank took care of it.

Anyway, I detest being in this position, between explaining myself and being perceived as "defensive". Perhaps I need to take some time away from TB.

Well, I for one have learned alot from reading your reviews and posts. Talkbass would definitly be lacking something with out you.

 

[boomertech]

I even had an FEA pedal "go bad" on me one time! Naturally Frank took care of it.

It was the end-of-warranty-so-I-get-more-business feature that prematurely triggered.

-Frank

 

[recnsci]

My point is… that with these very fast opto’s with a well designed servo circuit that the old school of thought about opto compression no longer applies.

yes, I completely agree with this. My only point was that emulation of opto idiosyncrasies will be just that - emulation.
...
BTW that 2nd order distortion you've described is waaay to high for any ripple induced distortion I can think of, and it doesn't behave level wise like ripple inducted distortion.

(BTW I'm quite fond of investigating how THD spectrum is dependesnt on level, where my theory is smooth increase/decrease of distortion partials => smooth/warm/chose-trendy-adjective sounding device)

Let's play a game. Which of these comments came from Bongo in this thread, and which came from Bongo's compressor reviews?

Take 10 guys from random studios and get them to make top list of dbx comps. Averaged list will go like this:
1) 160VU
2) 160X/XT
3) rest of them
not that new dbx comps are bad, but dbx has diversified their production in last decade or two, and bottom of their dynamic family is no better than Behr-something. OTOH 162SL is one fine compressor. And lets see what bongomania said on some low end dbx stuff.

I've always found it somewhat ironic that people refer to this magical sound that "iron" supposedly imparts ... while the main point of it, historically, has been the utilitarian function of impedance matching, and to do it transparently.

It is not of paramunt importance if x-former saturate. Thing is, tube power amps work a bitt different compared to solid state. Average solid state amp (even 30 years old) is designed to get as close to perfect volatge aplification device as possible. So, lot of negative feedback, low output impedance => it pretty much doesn't care what is it driving, as long as you don't fry output transistors with too low load. OTOH, in tube power amp, load (reflected through transformer) become integral part of total amplification equation beacuse it is direct load on anode. That's why output iron is of great importance regarding pwr amp tone, first it reflects back pretty complex speaker impedance and it has it's own complex impedance. Further more, while it's (sort of) easy to make 1:1 transformer that is "flat", it is rather difficult to make one with high step down (or step up ratio). In the end, transformer doesn't have to distort (in sense of magnetic core saturation) to be colorfull.
...
side note: bunch of thermionic heads cherish their single ended triode HiFi amps and claim unrivaled clarity. While clarity is in ear of beholder, those amps are far from clean.


...
Sorry to OP for OT

 

[BioDriver]

Perhaps I need to take some time away from TB.

You could always take a vacation to the OT.

 

[chuck norriss]

Anyway what happened to Incubus? They used to rock; now, not so much. The new album is soft-rock. By the way, there's a Compressore "toy" on ebay at $69 right now. Steal.