Melodic minor mode? (Music theory)

[Groove Master]

This is not what you were asking about and will make your brain hurt but harmony based on the modes derived from the melodic minor scale is something that exists. I wouldn't necessarily jump into this right now (get your diatonic inside playing more together first) but be aware as you start understanding more outside sounding stuff that this sound has been explored and used by a lot of jazz players. But like any modes you're not looking so much to superimpose them over a chord as to understand that chords and harmony can be derived from them.


II Phrygian ♮6

I see this one more like a Dorian with a b2 ;-). Same thing though

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Just for the beginner musicians from here.

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[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. Remotely related to our discussion that involves some tonal center.

Take a 12-Tone Trip: All About Serial Composition
John Goldsby.

"I had one of those moments last week when the bass part of Bob Brookmeyer’s “Tick Tock” landed on my stand just before a run-through rehearsal. I consider myself a decent sightreader, but during the chart’s first unison section, which features an exposed quarter-note line with bass and piano, I was flailing—not crashing and burning, but rather, just slopping through the notes and shifts. I couldn’t figure out what the problem was until I later checked the bass line closely

Looking at the line, I noticed there was no key signature, which is not unusual in jazz charts. I realized my problem was the absence of any tonal center. The bass line consisted of a string of 12-tone rows, where no note was repeated in the sequence of each row. I was flummoxed playing the line because I was searching for a key center that was not there."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I know we have quite a few Musical Theory "Einsteins". Maybe they could show me my theory fallacies.
Let's just take one(1) octave (not two or three) and look at the fundamentals.
P.S. We need to follow the same rules in order to play "Texas Hold'em Poker".

Here is my fundamental vision of the Lydian mode - it's that #4th when we start at the root - C.

Now, let's take a look at the Mixolydian Mode.

That's my "cemented foundation".

Now let's do the following, but without venturing into that second octave above our tonic.

Somebody is playing a scale/mode as follows starting with Middle C as the Root and going up.

C (6), D(6), E(6), F#(6) - It's the Lydian Mode(!), G(6), A(6), B(6), and C(7).
What if I lower that B(6)?
as
C (6), D(6), E(6), F#(6) - It's the Lydian Mode(!), G(6), A(6), Bb(6), and C(7) = Lydian with b7.

In short.
If we go up from the root and raise that 4th degree - I will call it Lydian.

Now about that Mixolydian with raised 4th (sorry, for some unknown reason) let's call it #11.

Let's start again from the ground, from the Root, C and go up.
C (6), D(6), E(6), F#(6)- - It's the Lydian Mode(!).
No, you lame WUTP.
It's our Mixolydian Mode with raised 4th (#11)
???...
But the sharp 4th belongs to the Lydian Family...
Did I miss something?
Show me my fallacy?

Let's take a good book by Chuck Sher, "The Improviser's Bass Method".

On page 63, we see the following:
(At least we can see that #4 instead of #11)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Let me continue with my fallacies until our respected Moderators or MalcolmAmos stops me.

About the Modes of the Melodic Minor Scale.
From here:
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From here:
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[Groove Master]

Well that proves that we need a certain form a standarized nomenclature about jazz harmony evolution...

 

[Spin Doctor]

Let me continue with my fallacies until our respected Moderators or MalcolmAmos stops me.

About the Modes of the Melodic Minor Scale.
From here:
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View attachment 1146280 View attachment 1146281
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From here:
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While I guess I can appreciate the passion, but isn't this simply a case where Lydian Dominant and Mixolydian #4 are different names for the same thing?

There are plenty of instances of a music quality having two different names. It's pretty common...

 

[Spin Doctor]

Well that proves that we need a certain form a standarized nomenclature about jazz harmony evolution...

If one takes the time to understand the scales and modes, the names make perfect sense without any standardized nomenclature.

If I know what Lydian means and I know what dominant means, I know that I can spell C Lydian Dominant as: C D E #F G A Bb.

If I know what Mixolydian means and I know what a sharp 4 means, I know that I can spell C Mixolydian #4 as: C D E F# G A Bb.

 

[AngelCrusher]

It seems like this discussion has become about semantics more than anything else.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

While I guess I can appreciate the passion, but isn't this simply a case where Lydian Dominant and Mixolydian #4 are different names for the same thing?

There are plenty of instances of a music quality having two different names. It's pretty common...

Yes, and no.
Yes, the pitches are, kind of, the same...
There are plenty of new kind of scales, chords, etc., and I have nothing against it, but...
There are basics, fundamentals, like those piano keys that clearly supports the Modes.
When somebody tells me, it's a Major chord, I tend to guess, "It, most probably, should have that M3rd".
When somebody says, it's the Lydian Mode, I tend to know that it has the #4th.
Or, let's take different examples.
It's one Metric Ton or it's one Net Ton, or it's one pound, or it's 12 millimeters, or it's 12.6 Ft., or it's 12'6"(attention!).
Which one measurement is easier for this or that person.
Anyway.
We are fighting over, "Is it F# or Gb note?"
To me, the fundamental Modes - Ionian, Dorian, etc... - are like some solid foundation.
Why would anyone like to mess with it.

It's only my personal (ignorant) opinion.

 

[Groove Master]

It seems like this discussion has become about semantics more than anything else.

I don't think so.

There are still people around here having a hard time to accept that the Dorian mode is the second degree of a Major scale for example.....

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It seems like this discussion has become about semantics more than anything else.

Let's get back to work.
One could experiment with some Hexatonic (six-note) scales.
Let's take two major triads from Ab melodic -
Eb major - Eb G Bb
and
Db major - Db F Ab.
We will have one hexatonic scale - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb

Or,
We can have a hexatonic whole tone scale from B
B, C#, D#, F, G, A(non-diatonic to Ab melodic), B.
Or from Db - Eb - F - G - A(chromatic) - B.

Or let's go "further" into the "non-diatonic" world and play

V7alt (G7alt) - Scale: G-Ab-B-C-D#-E Chord tones: 3-b7-b9-b13 (B-F-Ab-Eb) Non chord tones: natural 11 & 13 (C & E).

From here:
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Let's try to "recycle" that Augmented (Hexatonic) scale by starting it on
Eb - Gb - G - Bb - C - Db and play it over the G7Alt chord.

 

[Groove Master]

Let's get back to work.
One could experiment with some Hexatonic (six-note) scales.
Let's take two major triads from Ab melodic -
Eb major - Eb G Bb
and
Db major - Db F Ab.
We will have one hexatonic scale - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb

Or,
We can have a hexatonic whole tone scale from B
B, C#, D#, F, G, A(non-diatonic to Ab melodic), B.
Or from Db - Eb - F - G - A(chromatic) - B.

Or let's go "further" into the "non-diatonic" world and play

V7alt (G7alt) - Scale: G-Ab-B-C-D#-E Chord tones: 3-b7-b9-b13 (B-F-Ab-Eb) Non chord tones: natural 11 & 13 (C & E).

From here:
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View attachment 1146628


Let's try to "recycle" that Augmented (Hexatonic) scale by starting it on
Eb - Gb - G - Bb - C - Db and play it over the G7Alt chord.

Sorry but this example is so off the grid...I don't know where to start...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Sorry but this example is so off the grid...I don't know where to start...

It is a very good point.
I was never too keen on all those synthetic scales.
Some musicians claim it's an interesting idea, but here at TB we can prove how wrong they are.

 

[Groove Master]

It is a very good point.
I was never too keen on all those synthetic scales.
Some musicians claim it's an interesting idea, but here at TB we can prove how wrong they are.

I know what you mean but I think we have to keep it simple like a good and easy groove ;-)

 

[inanimate_carb]

A better and more sensible way to handle hexatonics is to look at them as triad pairs. There's plenty of info and applied usages here and all over the net.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here is my lame amateur attempt to engage some "non-diatonic" notes - C, E, and A - with the G7Alt chord (or Ab melodic minor).
(From those "synthetic" scales.)

Here is how it sound with GP.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...2/?temp_hash=06255139ec9047885f73e431b4492ae5

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I've tried another "synthetic" scale - Eb Augmented (b7) - with Ab Melodic Minor.
I've just decided to avoid that D note and played Db instead.
The fretboard diagram for the notes used in my "synthetic" exercise.
I've just increased the note count for that "synthetic" exercise.

Here are the notes and TAB.

And here is a sound clip from GP.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=c941e981d9fabecce8df94fbb3e6a694

 

[SteveCS]

It seems like this discussion has become about semantics more than anything else.

All this thread has done for me so far is confirm that theory exists to serve the music it reflects.
Put the 'theory' cart in front of the 'music' horse things quickly go south.
YMMV.

 

[Spin Doctor]

All this thread has done for me so far is confirm that theory exists to serve the music it reflects.
Put the 'theory' cart in front of the 'music' horse things quickly go south.
YMMV.

I agree. Also, I think you just gotta put in the seat time to figure out what's happening and why, before you can really talk about it in a meaningful way.