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Melodic minor mode? (Music theory)

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Roger DeLarge, May 13, 2017.


  1. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    I see this one more like a Dorian with a b2 ;-). Same thing though
     
  2. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
  3. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    P.S. Remotely related to our discussion that involves some tonal center.

    Take a 12-Tone Trip: All About Serial Composition
    John Goldsby.

    "I had one of those moments last week when the bass part of Bob Brookmeyer’s “Tick Tock” landed on my stand just before a run-through rehearsal. I consider myself a decent sightreader, but during the chart’s first unison section, which features an exposed quarter-note line with bass and piano, I was flailing—not crashing and burning, but rather, just slopping through the notes and shifts. I couldn’t figure out what the problem was until I later checked the bass line closely

    Looking at the line, I noticed there was no key signature, which is not unusual in jazz charts. I realized my problem was the absence of any tonal center. The bass line consisted of a string of 12-tone rows, where no note was repeated in the sequence of each row. I was flummoxed playing the line because I was searching for a key center that was not there."
     
    Groove Master likes this.
  4. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I know we have quite a few Musical Theory "Einsteins". Maybe they could show me my theory fallacies.
    Let's just take one(1) octave (not two or three) and look at the fundamentals.
    P.S. We need to follow the same rules in order to play "Texas Hold'em Poker".

    Here is my fundamental vision of the Lydian mode - it's that #4th when we start at the root - C.

    Clydian.PNG Clydian-2.PNG

    Now, let's take a look at the Mixolydian Mode.

    Cmixolydian.PNG Cmixolydian-2.PNG
    Mix.PNG

    That's my "cemented foundation".

    Now let's do the following, but without venturing into that second octave above our tonic.

    Somebody is playing a scale/mode as follows starting with Middle C as the Root and going up.

    C (6), D(6), E(6), F#(6) - It's the Lydian Mode(!), G(6), A(6), B(6), and C(7).
    What if I lower that B(6)?
    as
    C (6), D(6), E(6), F#(6) - It's the Lydian Mode(!), G(6), A(6), Bb(6), and C(7) = Lydian with b7.

    In short.
    If we go up from the root and raise that 4th degree - I will call it Lydian.

    Now about that Mixolydian with raised 4th (sorry, for some unknown reason) let's call it #11.

    Let's start again from the ground, from the Root, C and go up.
    C (6), D(6), E(6), F#(6)- - It's the Lydian Mode(!).
    No, you lame WUTP.
    It's our Mixolydian Mode with raised 4th (#11)
    ???...
    But the sharp 4th belongs to the Lydian Family...
    Did I miss something?
    Show me my fallacy?

    Let's take a good book by Chuck Sher, "The Improviser's Bass Method".

    On page 63, we see the following:
    (At least we can see that #4 instead of #11)
    Ch.Sher-Mixolydian.PNG
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  5. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
  6. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    Well that proves that we need a certain form a standarized nomenclature about jazz harmony evolution...
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  7. While I guess I can appreciate the passion, but isn't this simply a case where Lydian Dominant and Mixolydian #4 are different names for the same thing?

    There are plenty of instances of a music quality having two different names. It's pretty common...
     
    Bob_Ross likes this.
  8. If one takes the time to understand the scales and modes, the names make perfect sense without any standardized nomenclature.

    If I know what Lydian means and I know what dominant means, I know that I can spell C Lydian Dominant as: C D E #F G A Bb.

    If I know what Mixolydian means and I know what a sharp 4 means, I know that I can spell C Mixolydian #4 as: C D E F# G A Bb.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
    Bob_Ross likes this.
  9. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    It seems like this discussion has become about semantics more than anything else.
     
  10. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Yes, and no.
    Yes, the pitches are, kind of, the same...
    There are plenty of new kind of scales, chords, etc., and I have nothing against it, but...
    There are basics, fundamentals, like those piano keys that clearly supports the Modes.
    When somebody tells me, it's a Major chord, I tend to guess, "It, most probably, should have that M3rd".
    When somebody says, it's the Lydian Mode, I tend to know that it has the #4th.
    Or, let's take different examples.
    It's one Metric Ton or it's one Net Ton, or it's one pound, or it's 12 millimeters, or it's 12.6 Ft., or it's 12'6"(attention!).
    Which one measurement is easier for this or that person.
    Anyway.
    We are fighting over, "Is it F# or Gb note?"
    To me, the fundamental Modes - Ionian, Dorian, etc... - are like some solid foundation.
    Why would anyone like to mess with it.

    It's only my personal (ignorant) opinion.
     
  11. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    I don't think so.

    There are still people around here having a hard time to accept that the Dorian mode is the second degree of a Major scale for example.....:bored::eek::banghead:
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  12. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Let's get back to work.
    One could experiment with some Hexatonic (six-note) scales.
    Let's take two major triads from Ab melodic -
    Eb major - Eb G Bb
    and
    Db major - Db F Ab.
    We will have one hexatonic scale - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb

    Or,
    We can have a hexatonic whole tone scale from B
    B, C#, D#, F, G, A(non-diatonic to Ab melodic), B.
    Or from Db - Eb - F - G - A(chromatic) - B.

    Or let's go "further" into the "non-diatonic" world and play

    V7alt (G7alt) - Scale: G-Ab-B-C-D#-E Chord tones: 3-b7-b9-b13 (B-F-Ab-Eb) Non chord tones: natural 11 & 13 (C & E).

    From here:
    The Augmented Scale as Sub for Melodic Minor Harmony

    Augmented.PNG



    Let's try to "recycle" that Augmented (Hexatonic) scale by starting it on
    Eb - Gb - G - Bb - C - Db and play it over the G7Alt chord.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  13. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    Sorry but this example is so off the grid...I don't know where to start...
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  14. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    It is a very good point.
    I was never too keen on all those synthetic scales.
    Some musicians claim it's an interesting idea, but here at TB we can prove how wrong they are.
     
    Groove Master likes this.
  15. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    I know what you mean but I think we have to keep it simple like a good and easy groove ;-)
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  16. inanimate_carb

    inanimate_carb

    Aug 11, 2016
    A better and more sensible way to handle hexatonics is to look at them as triad pairs. There's plenty of info and applied usages here and all over the net.
     
    Groove Master and Whousedtoplay like this.
  17. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS

    Attached Files:

  18. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I've tried another "synthetic" scale - Eb Augmented (b7) - with Ab Melodic Minor.
    I've just decided to avoid that D note and played Db instead.
    The fretboard diagram for the notes used in my "synthetic" exercise.
    I've just increased the note count for that "synthetic" exercise.
    EbAugmented.PNG

    Here are the notes and TAB.
    AbMelodicMinor-EbAugmented.PNG
    AbMelodicMinor-EbAugmented2.PNG
    And here is a sound clip from GP.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=c941e981d9fabecce8df94fbb3e6a694
     

    Attached Files:

  19. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    All this thread has done for me so far is confirm that theory exists to serve the music it reflects.
    Put the 'theory' cart in front of the 'music' horse things quickly go south.
    YMMV.
     
  20. I agree. Also, I think you just gotta put in the seat time to figure out what's happening and why, before you can really talk about it in a meaningful way.
     
    SteveCS likes this.

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